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What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

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Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#31

Post by underwater »

GuiA wrote: post #11
jasonkostempski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Younger generations don’t have much use for device that can’t fit in a pocket." They do when they're trying to create something more complicated than a social media post.

I know students who have written essays, put together presentations, etc solely on their phones. If you really believe that the only thing “younger generations” do is post on social media, I suggest you spend more time around high schoolers (for example), particularly those with limited financial means.

I can’t imagine writing something much more substantial than a couple of paragraphs. Typing is fine, but editing is so slow without a mouse.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#32

Post by shurcooL »

hyperpallium wrote: post #23
gok wrote: post #6

I always find the “make it this size and you’ll rule the world” quote interesting. The users I know who really love their iPads/tablets are closer to @alankay1’s generation. Younger generations don’t have much use for device that can’t fit in a pocket. I wonder how much the interest in iPad-sized devices came from years of using paper about that size.

Fitting in a pocket is a great advantage for a portable device, to everyone. The market seems to be saying: if I need something that I have to lug around, I might as well have a keyboard. i.e. a laptop. Another effect is people are doing everything they can on a phone, because of the convenience. This leads to slightly larger phones every year, and now a 5.5" phone is no longer considered a "phablet", and apple is ru…

I agree.

I've been using an iPad mini with Cellular as my phone-replacement mobile device since the day iPad mini came out. It fits in my pocket (not as comfortably as a phone, but well enough).

My only other device is a 15" MBP.

To be more accurate, the iPad mini is 7.9", not 7" though. And 4:3 aspect ratio. So in area, it's still much bigger than a 6.5" 16+:9 phone would be.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#33

Post by layoric »

adamson wrote: post #30
peterkelly wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This guy badgered me about how Microsoft was going to completely change the world with this tablet PC software and eliminate all notebook computers, and Apple ought to license his Microsoft software. But he was doing the device all wrong. It had a stylus. As soon as your have a stylus, you’re dead. This dinner was like the tenth time he talked to me about it, and I was so sick of it that I came home and said, “Fuck…

Who really won though? Does anyone buy tablets anymore? I feel like I haven't seen one since 2015.

They seem to yes.

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/05/4q17-ipad-vs-other-tabl...

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#34

Post by greglindahl »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #27
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He brought the iPhone to me, put it in my hands, and asked: “Alan, is this good enough to be criticized?”. My reply was to make a shape with my hands the size of an iPad: “Steve, make it this size and you’ll rule the world”. I find this especially telling after Apple's recent education-focused announcement[1], where Apple continues trying to push the iPad as an educational tool. Is this Tim Cook trying to continue…

> Or do Apple seriously believe the iPad as it is has a business chance in the cash-strapped education market? It does. It just has to sell on hype instead of any actual utility. It's a very common sales strategy.

Huh. I read on a tablet all of the time, I guess that makes me a prisoner of hype! Minority view, yes.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#35

Post by TeMPOraL »

hyperpallium wrote: post #23
gok wrote: post #6

I always find the “make it this size and you’ll rule the world” quote interesting. The users I know who really love their iPads/tablets are closer to @alankay1’s generation. Younger generations don’t have much use for device that can’t fit in a pocket. I wonder how much the interest in iPad-sized devices came from years of using paper about that size.

Fitting in a pocket is a great advantage for a portable device, to everyone. The market seems to be saying: if I need something that I have to lug around, I might as well have a keyboard. i.e. a laptop. Another effect is people are doing everything they can on a phone, because of the convenience. This leads to slightly larger phones every year, and now a 5.5" phone is no longer considered a "phablet", and apple is ru…

iOS and Android turn tablets into oversized phones, so no surprise they lose against phones - they have the same (or usually worse, at a given price point) capabilities while being larger, thus less convenient to carry and more fragile.

These days I'm not using much Windows for desktop (HN took over the time I had for games), but I do sincerely hope this OS will live on for at least couple more years, because Microsoft is the only company that knows how to do tablets. Seriously. A proper operating system, with real capabilities and proper user interface that can make use of the tablet form, makes a world of a difference. And I say that as someone who owned a decent Android tablet in the past. As someone who's friends and family with people owning currently decent Android tablets. My little Windows 10 el-cheapo tablet/netbook I picked up second-hand for ~$130 is much more useful than the top-of-the-line Samsung tablet offering. Hell, it already earned me many times more than its own value back, as it's good enough to do some meaningful dev work on the bus/train.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#36

Post by greglindahl »

underwater wrote: post #31
GuiA wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know students who have written essays, put together presentations, etc solely on their phones. If you really believe that the only thing “younger generations” do is post on social media, I suggest you spend more time around high schoolers (for example), particularly those with limited financial means.

I can’t imagine writing something much more substantial than a couple of paragraphs. Typing is fine, but editing is so slow without a mouse.

Man, imagine what editing was like in the typewriter era! I assure you, I got good at not needing as much editing. Two drafts and done.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#37

Post by TeMPOraL »

peterkelly wrote: post #19
nashashmi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He called the iPad at the time a glass keyboard. Because he didn't want to give it away. And let's not forget that a Microsoft guy provoked him into creating a tablet called the iPad.

"This guy badgered me about how Microsoft was going to completely change the world with this tablet PC software and eliminate all notebook computers, and Apple ought to license his Microsoft software. But he was doing the device all wrong. It had a stylus. As soon as your have a stylus, you’re dead. This dinner was like the tenth time he talked to me about it, and I was so sick of it that I came home and said, “Fuck…

Microsoft was designing a tool for work. Apple went with a toy for entertainment. In retrospect, it's no surprise the latter won out.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#38

Post by TeMPOraL »

greglindahl wrote: post #34
TeMPOraL wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or do Apple seriously believe the iPad as it is has a business chance in the cash-strapped education market? It does. It just has to sell on hype instead of any actual utility. It's a very common sales strategy.

Huh. I read on a tablet all of the time, I guess that makes me a prisoner of hype! Minority view, yes.

Education is not about just reading, but regardless - you know what's better for reading than an iPad? A paper book. And if your concern is weight, you know what combines the best qualities of a paper book and a tablet? An e-book reader with e-Ink display.

(This is sad, really. As I understand, e-Ink tech is patented to death, so there's little progress there.)

Still, I'm not saying iPads are useless in general. The topic is relative merit of iPad vs. other possibilities, in education. My claims are as follows:

- iPad is a bad idea in education, partly because of the low capabilities of the device, and partly because not much apps that would would make full use of the capabilities of the device in order to encourage learning (this is kind of similar to "edutainment" or "educational games" for PC - utter crap that only fools parents)

- given that, iPad looses to plethora of other tools available for teachers, most of which are low-tech

- neither of the two points above will prevent iPad from succeeding on this market, as the hype is strong enough to overcome rational obstacles

--

Incidentally, I feel like back in 2015. I thought iPads already succeeded in getting sold to schools en masse, and it already turned out to be a colossal waste of money. I'm pretty sure we already had those discussions on HN.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#39

Post by TeMPOraL »

GuiA wrote: post #11
jasonkostempski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Younger generations don’t have much use for device that can’t fit in a pocket." They do when they're trying to create something more complicated than a social media post.

I know students who have written essays, put together presentations, etc solely on their phones. If you really believe that the only thing “younger generations” do is post on social media, I suggest you spend more time around high schoolers (for example), particularly those with limited financial means.

Limited financial means is the key here. A decent smartphone costs as much as a lower-end computer; for kids, there's a good chance it was either-or proposition in terms of which device they get to own (instead of sharing with family).

Reminds me of a friend who, few years ago, was a teenager of limited financial means. He earned his first real $50 through a phone. His laptop broke, and he didn't have anyone to borrow one from in time, so he ssh'd into a remote machine from his phone and did the work (some data wrangling task) this way. Where there's a will, there's a way.

But still, that in no way suggests phones are good at text editing or productive work. They're capable enough, if you have lots of will and no other option.

Re: What did Alan Kay and Steve Jobs talk about at the 2007 iPhone keynote?

#40

Post by ekianjo »

greglindahl wrote: post #34
TeMPOraL wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or do Apple seriously believe the iPad as it is has a business chance in the cash-strapped education market? It does. It just has to sell on hype instead of any actual utility. It's a very common sales strategy.

Huh. I read on a tablet all of the time, I guess that makes me a prisoner of hype! Minority view, yes.

there are better devices for reading. Objectively.
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