Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#31

Post by dane-pgp » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

nugget wrote: post #7

Nomentatus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping this is Facebook's illegal interference with interoperability. Once upon a time railroads and telephone companies had to be forced to allow traffic to cross networks, now it's time for Facebook, etc, to do this. Well past time.

This is why the data portability requirements imposed by GDPR are potentially so significant.

For those who haven't read it, the requirements are here:

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-20-gdpr/

In particular, there is this wording:

"In exercising his or her right to data portability pursuant to paragraph 1, the data subject shall have the right to have the personal data transmitted directly from one controller to another, where technically feasible."

This could, in principle, require Facebook to automatically broadcast your posts to your friends on third party social networks, once a standardised technology for that becomes widely implemented. Fortunately it seems that progress is being made on that:

https://activitypub.rocks/

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#32

Post by indigodaddy » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:30 AM UTC

eadmund wrote: post #30

feelin_googley wrote: post #26

Prof. Wu makes a couple of assumptions when he gives suggestions for Facebook alternatives or successors. I dont see those suggestions as the most important point of his argument however. I believe the most important point is that there must be competition, that trying to "fix" Facebook will not suffice. Nonetheless, these are the assumptions I see: 1. The software alternatives or successors must be commercial . 2. T…

> This scale is far greater than the average size of any Facebook users group of friends. Yes, but only an individual Facebook user . The problem is that my friends' friends' friends' friends' friends' friends encompass the entire human race: at some point, as I invite people who invite people who invite people, the underlying technology has to be able to support all mankind. Indeed, I suspect that this — not some mo…

Could a viable Facebook competitor be built on a distributed/p2p type network, perhaps something like ipfs and/or mesh networking?

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#33

Post by michaelmrose » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:34 AM UTC

jamestimmins wrote: post #8

It's interesting that Tim Wu discussed the cycle of technology starting amongst outsiders and then becoming monopolized in his (phenomenal) book The Master Switch. The cycle always repeats itself by the next new technology coming along, making the prior one less significant. We seem to have accepted that the internet is essentially the final communication tech. Maybe that's true, but it seems improbable. Simply based…

The internet has come to mean communication between potentially distant actors over a network.

The successor to the internet will be called the internet.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#34

Post by jamestimmins » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:39 AM UTC

jgh wrote: post #12

jamestimmins wrote: post #8

It's interesting that Tim Wu discussed the cycle of technology starting amongst outsiders and then becoming monopolized in his (phenomenal) book The Master Switch. The cycle always repeats itself by the next new technology coming along, making the prior one less significant. We seem to have accepted that the internet is essentially the final communication tech. Maybe that's true, but it seems improbable. Simply based…

I'm not really sure how blockchain is related to a potential "next" communication technology. Why not AR? Why not lasers n shit?

You're right. I was thinking "blockchain or another in-development technology", but was lazy in my phrasing. Other tech is equally as applicable.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#35

Post by feelin_googley » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

eadmund wrote: post #30

feelin_googley wrote: post #26

Prof. Wu makes a couple of assumptions when he gives suggestions for Facebook alternatives or successors. I dont see those suggestions as the most important point of his argument however. I believe the most important point is that there must be competition, that trying to "fix" Facebook will not suffice. Nonetheless, these are the assumptions I see: 1. The software alternatives or successors must be commercial . 2. T…

> This scale is far greater than the average size of any Facebook users group of friends. Yes, but only an individual Facebook user . The problem is that my friends' friends' friends' friends' friends' friends encompass the entire human race: at some point, as I invite people who invite people who invite people, the underlying technology has to be able to support all mankind. Indeed, I suspect that this — not some mo…

"... the actual internet is able to do that far more cheaply."

"I imagine the replacement for Facebook will be ... something under the control of its users..."

This is what I am trying (poorly) to articulate. I use a very small proof-of-concept application to accomplish something like this; no website, no third party managing a "service". I paid nothing for this application.

Zuckerberg says, "The reality here is that if you want to build a service that helps connect everyone in the world, then there are a lot of people who can't afford to pay."

Its difficult to understand what he means by "a service that helps connect everyone in the world".

Users already pay for internet access. This internet service is what allows the subscriber to connect to everyone in the world. What he is describing sounds more like a central registry of contact details.

What was the most elusive "starting material" to create a Facebook alternative: the contact and other personal details for most of its users. However this information is, as the world now knows, no longer in the sole possession of Facebook.

For example, 420 million profiles from 2007-2010 were expropriated some 10 years ago. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16724375

Today in response to media pressure, Facebook announced publicly "most" of their users have likely had their account info expropriated. "We believe most people on Facebook could have had their public profile scraped in this way."

Moreover, with the recent changes Facebook has made, every user now has the means to easily export her data in a portable format.

As a user, I might look up a contact in the "Facebook directory" (of which there might be many copies in many places) and then choose to communicate with her through a different channel, one that Facebook does not control.

This channel does not need to be managed by a third party seeking to profit from selling advertising. It does not have to appear anything like Facebook or any of it subsidiaries, although it could.

Once the contact and I are in touch there is no reason to involve Facebook or any other ad-supported web company going forward.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#36

Post by Geee » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:00 AM UTC

jgh wrote: post #12

jamestimmins wrote: post #8

It's interesting that Tim Wu discussed the cycle of technology starting amongst outsiders and then becoming monopolized in his (phenomenal) book The Master Switch. The cycle always repeats itself by the next new technology coming along, making the prior one less significant. We seem to have accepted that the internet is essentially the final communication tech. Maybe that's true, but it seems improbable. Simply based…

I'm not really sure how blockchain is related to a potential "next" communication technology. Why not AR? Why not lasers n shit?

It's possible to create distributed but capitalistic systems with blockchain. Without blockchain most distributed / P2P systems fail because they rely on volunteers to run the system.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#37

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

indigodaddy wrote: post #32

eadmund wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This scale is far greater than the average size of any Facebook users group of friends. Yes, but only an individual Facebook user . The problem is that my friends' friends' friends' friends' friends' friends encompass the entire human race: at some point, as I invite people who invite people who invite people, the underlying technology has to be able to support all mankind. Indeed, I suspect that this — not some mo…

Could a viable Facebook competitor be built on a distributed/p2p type network, perhaps something like ipfs and/or mesh networking?

Have you heard of Mastodon?

https://joinmastodon.org/

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#38

Post by jrs95 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:03 AM UTC

indigodaddy wrote: post #32

eadmund wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This scale is far greater than the average size of any Facebook users group of friends. Yes, but only an individual Facebook user . The problem is that my friends' friends' friends' friends' friends' friends encompass the entire human race: at some point, as I invite people who invite people who invite people, the underlying technology has to be able to support all mankind. Indeed, I suspect that this — not some mo…

Could a viable Facebook competitor be built on a distributed/p2p type network, perhaps something like ipfs and/or mesh networking?

It seems unrealistic because people would have to make the effort to publish their content on that network to keep it available. Or pay someone else to do so. A distributed approach to this is definitely interesting, but it's more technically challenging and it's not a silver bullet.

The big problem is how to fund a social network that doesn't rely on selling it's users data, IMO.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#39

Post by sidcool » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:10 AM UTC

I tried explaining my 20 year old cousin about FB. Her constant argument was "I don't share anything private on FB". She checks in on FB everywhere she goes. Posts her pics all the time. I could not instill any sense of concern for privacy.

What I could conclude is that the appeal of social is too great to have any caution. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think FB is going anywhere. People will keep using it inspite of the risks. It's like a smoking addiction. It's bad but very difficult to give up.

Re: Don’t Fix Facebook, Replace It

#40

Post by newscracker » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 4:11 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #37

indigodaddy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could a viable Facebook competitor be built on a distributed/p2p type network, perhaps something like ipfs and/or mesh networking?

Have you heard of Mastodon? https://joinmastodon.org/

Isn't Mastodon more of a Twitter replacement than a replacement for Facebook (which has time line, groups, pages, etc.)? I'm curious to know what's closer to what Facebook provides and is decentralized.