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Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

vanityfair.com

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Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#31

Post by Ruphin »

austincheney wrote: post #11
pieter_mj wrote: post #5

Yes you consented, but it's not an informed consent. Facebook will do anything to keep you as uninformed as possible (unreadable legalese, dark UX patterns, opt-outs, ...)

So many excuses. The story "Of course I agreed, but its all their fault because I didn't know what I agreed to" gets old. Everybody has known for years that Facebook uses this data against you to make money. If it didn't upset you before why would it suddenly upset you now?

When consenting to 'upload my contacts from my phone', I think very few people will interpret that as 'upload my complete call and text history'. Is it the user's fault for assuming Facebook is doing what it says it is? Should the user assume that they are being lied to by default and embark on a research project every time they want to use a product?

If Facebook presents the user with an alternate simple-to-understand representation of their EULA, it their responsibility to be fair and honest in this alternate representation. I think it is completely fair to blame them for failing to do so.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#33

Post by austincheney »

dictum wrote: post #27
austincheney wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not dark UX merely because you don't like it. Dark UX suggests a control designed to trick you into making a decision you would deliberate otherwise not make. I looked at their opt-in control and it is very clear that you have to opt-in. In other words, if you didn't want Facebook to have all your call and SMS data then why would you deliberately agree to give it to Facebook with their very obvious consent form?

> their very obvious consent form I haven't used FB in a long time and I never used their mobile app, so here's a genuine request: do you have a screenshot or some example of how they gather consent for this?

The Vanity Fair article about this featured a screenshot if you scroll down a little bit: https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/25/facebook-denies-it-collect...

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#34

Post by OrganicMSG »

That's funny, as I'd say that;

>"Contact uploading is optional. People are expressly asked if they want to give permission to upload their contacts from their phone – it’s explained right there in the apps when you get started."

doesn't really cover the complaint from Dylan McKay regarding;

> "metadata about every text message I've ever received or sent"

and;

> "the metadata of every cellular call I've ever made, including time and duration"

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#35

Post by pjc50 »

austincheney wrote: post #11
pieter_mj wrote: post #5

Yes you consented, but it's not an informed consent. Facebook will do anything to keep you as uninformed as possible (unreadable legalese, dark UX patterns, opt-outs, ...)

So many excuses. The story "Of course I agreed, but its all their fault because I didn't know what I agreed to" gets old. Everybody has known for years that Facebook uses this data against you to make money. If it didn't upset you before why would it suddenly upset you now?

There's an awful lot of people posting "we knew it was bad already, why do you care now?" Remarkably consistently across all articles relating to Facebook. Clearly you want nothing done about this and are happy with this low level of privacy. But on the other hand a lot of people have been unhappy with it for a long time; suddenly the dam has broken and the public discussion in the media is taking an interest.

This happens with many scandals. I'm reminded of LIBOR "rigging", which all the participants thought was entirely normal.

Speaking of financial services, the UK had a long run of "pensions mis-selling" scandals. https://pensionsorter.co.uk/pensions-scandals/ ; I put the personal information leaking into the same category. People were presented with options they did not fully understand the implications of and then induced into picking ones which turned out badly for them. This kind of thing is why so many people hate the financial services industry, and the data mining industry is going to end up the same way if they're not careful.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#36

Post by pjc50 »

austincheney wrote: post #21
natestemen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be completely honest, I don't think many people outside the tech bubble have realized the extent to which facebook used and collected users data. I just don't feel like it's fair to say everybody has known for years . Maybe in your circle, but certainly not in every ones.

> Maybe in your circle What if the audience in question is limited to people reading Hacker News? Do they have an excuse for the sudden change of heart?

I thought HN had been fairly privacy-skeptical of Facebook for a while.

Often with these things it's not the same people switching from a view to its opposite, it's more that one group shuts up and the other speaks up. The collective appears to change its mind without any individual having crossed the floor.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#37

Post by cryptoz »

mulletbum wrote: post #15
austincheney wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many excuses. The story "Of course I agreed, but its all their fault because I didn't know what I agreed to" gets old. Everybody has known for years that Facebook uses this data against you to make money. If it didn't upset you before why would it suddenly upset you now?

Can someone explain why this is getting downvoted? This is Hacker News not Reddit, please express your angle with text, not just a downvote.

Hacker News downvotes on emotion every second of every day. It is far worse than reddit. Do not complain about downvotes here, that is against the rules. It is not against the rules here to downvote a comment because you disagree with it, unlike reddit. That's normal here and how HN is meant to work.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#38

Post by cryptoz »

leereeves wrote: post #20
pieter_mj wrote: post #5

Yes you consented, but it's not an informed consent. Facebook will do anything to keep you as uninformed as possible (unreadable legalese, dark UX patterns, opt-outs, ...)

I would argue that consenting to allow Facebook to access your contacts is not consenting to allow Facebook to log your phone calls and SMS messages. Of course, some of the blame for that belongs with Google, for failing to accurately describe the permissions being given to apps.

People without smartphones and without Facebook who made phone calls to other people also got their calls logged. This was done 100% without their consent.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#39

Post by harryf »

pjc50 wrote: post #35
austincheney wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many excuses. The story "Of course I agreed, but its all their fault because I didn't know what I agreed to" gets old. Everybody has known for years that Facebook uses this data against you to make money. If it didn't upset you before why would it suddenly upset you now?

There's an awful lot of people posting "we knew it was bad already, why do you care now?" Remarkably consistently across all articles relating to Facebook. Clearly you want nothing done about this and are happy with this low level of privacy. But on the other hand a lot of people have been unhappy with it for a long time; suddenly the dam has broken and the public discussion in the media is taking an interest. This h…

The "why now?" question has a simple answer: "because Trump".

The public basically believes that Facebook enabled to Putin to get Trump elected. So suddenly the issue of all that data we've been sharing has gone from "I've got nothing to hide" to "This got that guy I hate elected"

Whether or not that's accurate or informed is beside the point.

Re: Zuckerberg hits users with the hard truth: You agreed to this

#40

Post by Ajedi32 »

FYI, Zuckerberg's _not_ referring to the EULA or TOS. He's talking about this dialog box in the app itself:

https://i.imgur.com/zGUdifB.png

Specifically, the very first sentence of the dialog box, which says:

> Continuously upload info about your contacts like phone numbers and nicknames, and your call and text history.

The article's not entirely clear on that point, so I thought I'd mention it here.

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