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All I need is a programmer

codeclimber.blogspot.com

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Re: All I need is a programmer

#31

Post by derefr »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #8

Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and offers Y where Y Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming right out and saying that they…

If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?

Re: All I need is a programmer

#32

Post by thwarted »

raganwald wrote: post #11
daniel-cussen wrote: post #7

Has anyone seen a post saying "All I need is a business guy?"

Maybe not a post, but I know several entrepreneurs who say--on a regular basis--"All I need is a sales guy," "All I need is a marketing guy," and/or "All I need is a bizdev guy." In each case, they believe that the hard part of their business is the part they are doing/have done, and teh sales/marketing/bizdev is a slam dunk.

I just had a conversation with someone today about adding editorial content to a site. There is no content to post yet, but it's time to get cracking on writing the code to display it! As if writing the code is the hardest part of this. If we wanted it to take 15 minutes, we could install wordpress and be done: but it would be an empty site without all the other non-programming "business" things that need to be done before one can actually say they have a blog, ahem, editorial section.

Re: All I need is a programmer

#33

Post by tyn »

Tichy wrote: post #23
edw519 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's why this essay struck a nerve with me. There are certain things that 10% of the hackers I ever met could do in x amount of time that the other 90% could never do. In any amount of time. The longer I work in this field, the truer that seems. And managers have never understood that. They look at us as "person hours" to be mixed and matched to achieve their goals. I've never seen that work well. How many times ha…

But what if it doesn't matter if it takes a day or a week? And how is the business person to know? Just because Joe asks for a lot of money, are they supposed to believe that he is good? I think you are confusing your personal experiences and situations with the situation of some business guy. They are not out to start a software company, where they will manage programmers. They just want product x build. It is an ex…

Joe has a problem with his car, it makes a terribly annoying sound. He goes to Mechanic A who decides to replace his engine. Problem solved, cost 10000$. John has exactly the same problem (with the same cause), he goes to mechanic B who finds out that a small part of the engine needs replacement. Problem fixed, cost 65$.

Btw, software, unlike buildings or chairs, is extensible and the (technical) desing decisions of the programmer are very important in how extensible it is or if it is extensible at all.

Re: All I need is a programmer

#34

Post by Tichy »

tyn wrote: post #33
Tichy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if it doesn't matter if it takes a day or a week? And how is the business person to know? Just because Joe asks for a lot of money, are they supposed to believe that he is good? I think you are confusing your personal experiences and situations with the situation of some business guy. They are not out to start a software company, where they will manage programmers. They just want product x build. It is an ex…

Joe has a problem with his car, it makes a terribly annoying sound. He goes to Mechanic A who decides to replace his engine. Problem solved, cost 10000$. John has exactly the same problem (with the same cause), he goes to mechanic B who finds out that a small part of the engine needs replacement. Problem fixed, cost 65$. Btw, software, unlike buildings or chairs, is extensible and the (technical) desing decisions of…

Those examples are just outliers. You can always be unlucky. But the majority of mechanics can fix your car. And the problem remains: how are you supposed to know beforehand which mechanic is good?

Extensible software: maybe it doesn't matter so much for a prototype. If the concept proves itself, you could also start writing it again.

Re: All I need is a programmer

#35

Post by mechanical_fish »

derefr wrote: post #31
mechanical_fish wrote: post #8

Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and offers Y where Y Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming right out and saying that they…

If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?

Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think you will get.

Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10.

Following rule zero can be very hard. It takes a lot of social skill to deflect your opponent's request for an opening bid. I'm not sure rule zero even applies in a lot of situations -- for example, as a consultant I often just use rule one, because your customers will often be scared away if you act like the canonical Oracle salesperson and attempt to determine the approximate size of their bank account before you even name your rate. But you can give them a rate and then negotiate the project scope or schedule. ;)

I'm cribbing all of this from Dawson's Secrets of Power Negotiating, BTW. I find that book kind of cheesy -- perhaps because, like many techies, I'm a terrible negotiator by nature -- but it's a fun way to get inside the mind of a sales guy. I wish I'd read it before I went to China. Chinese shopkeepers saw me coming a mile away. I console myself with the knowledge that the profits from my few small purchases are probably putting some very nice Chinese kids through college now... Plus, my Chinese friend was highly entertained by the sight of my negotiating, and that's worth something.

Re: All I need is a programmer

#36

Post by jimbokun »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #35
derefr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?

Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think you will get. Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10. Following rule zero can be very…

My wife developed a technique in ChinaTown NYC that rarely failed.

She would decide what she wanted to pay (less than what was being asked, obviously), put down the money in front of the salesperson while picking up the item and wait for a response.

The salesperson was almost never willing to let her pick her money back up again.

Re: All I need is a programmer

#37

Post by paul9290 »

I have a programmer who due to visa issues is stuck in one state. We have worked together on a startup remotely 4 over a yr now. His full time gig sent him over to work only in one state. Now we are backed we want him to join us where our backers and I am, but immigration is backed up where it will take a year 2 approve his move. We are now looking for LAMP developers (2 yr experience) in and around the Philly area.

I wouldnt say all we need is a programmer, rather another team member who can join us locally, while he continues working remotely! Interested drop me mail at paul9290 yahoo.com. It's a paid position with equity!

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