American companies are suppressing wages for many workers • Hacker News Board

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#31

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

OscarCunningham wrote: post #25

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #18

The linked article mentions outsourcing, but it was this other _fantastic_ article [1] on the structural issues of the current wage economy that really helped me understand just how different things are: "Thirty years ago, she says, you could walk into any hotel in America and everyone in the building, from the cleaners to the security guards to the bartenders, was a direct hire, each worker on the same pay scale and…

What is it, in particular, about contracting that allows businesses to pay the same people less? What can they do with the contracting that they couldn't do without it? I think this: >“By shifting tasks to contractors, companies pay a price for a service rather than wages for work. That means they don’t have to think about training, career advancement or benefit provision.” was an attempt at explanation. But I don't…

It doesn't. The real reason is due to reduced demand for labor, partly due to increased efficiency from technology, partly due to reduced spending, etc.

At the end of the day, it's always supply and demand. The contracting just helps with creating a third party to deal with employment laws and all that hassle.

I recently stayed at a hotel and didn't even need to talk to anyone. Bought the room on via the hotel's app, the digital key in the app opened the door using the phone's NFC, the receipt was received via email.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#32

Post by troels » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

mindvirus wrote: post #15

expertentipp wrote: post #5

Post-contractual non-compete without any compensation. It’s starting to be a thing even in EU. 5-10 years ago I could sign an employment contract blindfolded, now it’s a freaking minefield where in couple of years I can end up without a job, unemployable, and owning multiple monthly salaries to the employer. We have too many bored lawyers.

For non competes, I wish the law was that companies could bench you, but they'd have to pay you 200% of your best comp of the past 5 years. I think it'd solve a ton of problems.

I some jurisdictions, putting overtly one-sided constraints in an employment contract (or any contract, where there is an asymmetry in power between the parties) may render it un-enforceable. For example, a non-compete, for no good reason, and with no compensation attached to it. But you'd still have to take your chances in court though.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#33

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:30 PM UTC

baq wrote: post #24

_m8fo wrote: post #3

And why wouldn't they? It's time to bring back mechanisms, legal or otherwise, to prevent this from happening again. Usually the collective workforce of a company has significant leverage over a company, but with the advent of globalization, the "gig economy", and technological unemployment in some ways this leverage is harder to capitalize on, or even worse, nonexistent. I don't know if there's any empirical proof f…

yeah that's what unions are really about - to think about the employees for the employees good, where HR thinks about them for the good of the company. implementations of that idea are of varying quality which unfortunately gives them a bad rep.

> implementations of that idea are of varying quality which unfortunately gives them a bad rep.

Also giving them a bad rep: propaganda efforts by big employers. Back when I worked for them, Walmart showed new hires a training video that could be summed up as "just say no to card checks; union organizers are trying to trick you into giving up your rights, and you don't need a union anyway because we value our associates so much".

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#34

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #3

And why wouldn't they? It's time to bring back mechanisms, legal or otherwise, to prevent this from happening again. Usually the collective workforce of a company has significant leverage over a company, but with the advent of globalization, the "gig economy", and technological unemployment in some ways this leverage is harder to capitalize on, or even worse, nonexistent. I don't know if there's any empirical proof f…

[deleted]

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#35

Post by hiram112 » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

Corporate America has trained the plebs well.

Every time a discussion on unions or any sort of organization to "push back" against the big companies in just our own industry is met with a good 50% of HN readers dismissing the idea outright.

And even talking about cutting off the supply of H1Bs - or at least the body shops that probably aren't as prolific at the top companies which are overrepresented here - is flagged and downvoted in minutes.

It doesn't surprise me, given the age of the average HN reader. Once you have a family, house, and have experienced age discrimination at 40, you'll have different views, I'm guessing. Maybe even sooner for many here if the blatant discrimination of white and asian males gets more traction.

I guess the thing that is so disappointing to me about this industry is that we're supposed to be smarter than the rest. But we have completely ignored the history of this country and the battles that our predecessors fought.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#36

Post by KarlMarxIsDaddy » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #3

And why wouldn't they? It's time to bring back mechanisms, legal or otherwise, to prevent this from happening again. Usually the collective workforce of a company has significant leverage over a company, but with the advent of globalization, the "gig economy", and technological unemployment in some ways this leverage is harder to capitalize on, or even worse, nonexistent. I don't know if there's any empirical proof f…

my good sir, the only thing that's "good for capitalism" is to throw it in the trash where it belongs

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#37

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #22

lotsofpulp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shopping for groceries might be close to a free market, but the production of food certainly isn't. Also, a big problem with the "free market" is inability and/or disincentive to price externalities, such as environmental damage. Although, it still seems to be a better system than others, we need to work on that front.

Do you mean large subsidies to US farmers? Wholesale food markets dominated by few huge buyers, Walmart-style?

I'm referring to subsidies to US farmers and underpriced water also. I'm not familiar with other countries, but the domination by Cargill and Monsanto and John Deere also probably detract from a free market.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#38

Post by manjushri » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #20

jacknews wrote: post #8

In addition it seems to me that labor is not a free market, simply because there is no choice to not offer your labor, since you'd starve. In large parts of the world anyway, and globalization has brought them into the 'free' market.

Free market means you're free to choose, where you work, what to buy, where to sell. Its not free from consequences. You can most definitely not provide your labor, go and start a self sustaining farm ( you probably only need 1 - 2 acres of land in the right location )

Are you positing that this free market exists and accessible? There are countless examples of people with little to no meaningful choice of where to work, what to buy, and what they can sell.

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#39

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

> For a long time, economists believed that labor-market monopsony rarely existed, at least outside old-fashioned company towns where a single factory employs most of the residents. But in recent decades, several compelling studies have revealed that monopsony is omnipresent. Professionals like doctors and nurses, workers in factories and meat processing plants, and sandwich makers and other low-skill workers earn far less — thousands of dollars less — than they would if employers did not dominate labor markets.

This is the most shocking part of the article for me. How could economists for years have denied something so plainly obvious?

Re: American companies are suppressing wages for many workers

#40

Post by shady-lady » Mon, Mar 05, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

Suppressing wages & over-working employees.

For salaried jobs in all companies, the only requirement for unpaid overtime should be responding to emergencies. So for engineering, this would mean always 40hr week unless dealing with out of hours production downtime.

There is way too much abuse happening(frequently implicitly).