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How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

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Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the first statement. To me, it invokes concepts of relativism. Certainty in actions, when well prepared, has a magical and transformative effect on things. I am willing to entertain thought experiments about how I can be wrong but I know I am not about certain ideas and philosophies.

> I know I am not about certain ideas and philosophies Can you give some examples?

I'm not the person you asked, but...

any philosophy/belief system that is descriptive (as opposed to prescriptive/normative) will be _apodictically_certain_ to the extent that it is free from internal contradictions. in simple cases we can examine the ideas and be very confident that there are no internal contradictions.

for example: given "A implies B" and "A" then we can conclude "B".

essentially any time you formalize definitions to the point that a statement of equivalence becomes obvious as a tautology, then you have an idea you can be certain about.

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#32
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't fathom the other side and where they're coming from, you, are in fact, biased beyond listening to facts, and are likely wrong. This one especially applies to politics. If you are one of those looking for "sanity", or "common sense", and can't imagine how the other side can possibly hold some position, then this applies to you.

I’m not sure that’s accurate. People hold all manner of irrational political beliefs and there is value in recognizing that irrationality.

There's almost always a reason for those "irrational" beliefs.

I, like many, was appalled to hear the statistics on the number of people who believe news they didn't agree with was "fake news" regardless of its accuracy.

Then I heard a counter-argument: in short they're applying the rubric "fake news" to biased news, which is a whole 'nother discussion I'd rather not dive into here.

I don't think there are all that many truly irrational beliefs out there, political or otherwise. The world is a massively complex place, and I can't really blame people for letting con men tell them otherwise.

(Ok, who am I kidding: yes I can blame them, but it does no good to assume everyone who disagrees with me is stupid or a victim.)

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#33
the authors make some good points, but i have a different perspective when it comes to criticizing science.

1. criticism is easy. penetrating criticism that demands an answer beyond the evidence already presented lest the criticized appear totally defeated is hard. it's also the only kind of criticism worth doing, imo.

2. being listened to is a matter of having penetrating criticism and offering a reasonable alternative. if you destroy, you must offer a chance to rebuild afterward, or else the criticism will be too uncomfortable to respond to, and nobody will appear to listen as a result. if you are skeptical of this point (as you should be) refer to the position of string theory within the world of particle physics; its criticism of the mainstream is very difficult to recover from if accepted, and there's no real mental way forward as a result.

3. it sucks to have your work criticized in public -- it's intolerable, even. but it sometimes gets results. it also sucks to have someone be impolite to you. but i am sure we can all remember a time that someone (perhaps a teacher or parent) has corrected us impolitely when we did not deserve courtesy. you need to retain the ability to dismiss cranks out of hand once you've suitably proven that you can beat them by making a diligent argument. anything else would lead to your time being wasted rehashing the same mistakes of others in detail.

4. scientists are, very frequently, in their professional life, jerks. i am speaking from my own experiences and my own actions. the OP doesn't exactly brush on this, but sometimes being a jerk to the right people is what makes you the right friends. you don't really want to be friends with baddies anyway. this next point is super important and directly related.

5. don't be a jerk to people because they produced incorrect work. often the theories that turn out to be totally wrong are the ones that move the field forward the most by virtue of the work put into disproving them. if they're fabricating data or doing things that are methodologically unforgivable, that's a different story.

6. scientists are a stubborn lot, until they break in the face of evidence. if you are "right" and the world is "wrong," perpetually aggregating more evidence and showing it off will eventually work, especially if you make a point to summarize your findings every once in a while. this is just as true regarding criticism as it is regarding experimental results. here is a secret: if the subfield where you are directing your criticism has only made incremental progress for a long time -- which is to say, recently there have been no major breakthroughs or destructive revolutions which reshape prior understandings -- time is on the critic's side. incremental progress isn't stagnation, but it rarely adds enough evidence about fundamental assumptions to protect those assumptions from a sustained attack. if a field is making leaps and bounds forward, criticism is going to be shrugged off because there will be new understandings which are too juicy to slow down to refine. the later refining stages are where critics are the strongest.

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#34

I've also investigated bad science papers before, and blogged about it a few times. There's a lot out there. There's nothing special about getting a PhD that makes you politically neutral or morally superior. The temptation to abuse maths to make your personal views seem "scientific" is irresistible for too many. My last public attempt: https://blog.plan99.net/did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f... I feel some sympa…

I don't understand why this is being downvoted. It seems to be the most insightful, empirically grounded, high-effort comment in the thread.

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#35
Other would-be data whistleblowers are impressed by the duo’s success in getting journals to act. Paul Brookes, of the University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, briefly used his now-defunct blog, science-fraud.org, to highlight questionable papers anonymously. Brookes, who was outed amid legal threats in 2013 after only 6 months, says he would “routinely write dozens of emails [to journal editors], and it was common to have no response at all.”

Quote from the Science article linked to in OA. I think the OA is useful in laying out a less confrontational approach to raising issues.

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#36
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My viewpoint on number one is simple: I'm always wrong Easier to move forward with that default assumption and try to prove I'm not as wrong as I thought and that "right" is the wrong attitude to hold.

How do you improve your knowledge if every path forward is still wrong? (In ML terms, how do you apply gradient descent if every path forward is up?)

Not OP, but I think the idea is to consciously pause before taking the path that is obviously (to you) downhill. This gives you a chance to think whether it's actually downhill instead of making an assumption. It's a way to practice mindfulness

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#37
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the first statement. To me, it invokes concepts of relativism. Certainty in actions, when well prepared, has a magical and transformative effect on things. I am willing to entertain thought experiments about how I can be wrong but I know I am not about certain ideas and philosophies.

> I know I am not about certain ideas and philosophies Can you give some examples?

Most of the ideas I hold as certain have some built-in leeway. One example that comes to mind: "A good solution now is often better than a perfect solution later."

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#39

I've also investigated bad science papers before, and blogged about it a few times. There's a lot out there. There's nothing special about getting a PhD that makes you politically neutral or morally superior. The temptation to abuse maths to make your personal views seem "scientific" is irresistible for too many. My last public attempt: https://blog.plan99.net/did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f... I feel some sympa…

I don't understand why this is being downvoted. It seems to be the most insightful, empirically grounded, high-effort comment in the thread.

I noticed the same thing (and upvoted to push back). I am not 100% sure but I think there's a trend on HN whereby good comments are often being downvoted. I need to recheck the guidelines (on mobile now) but I thought downvote should be applied rarely. For example I don't downvote if I disagree, even when I am actively arguing in a thread. I reserve downvoting for trolling and other obviously bad faith comments.

Re: How not to be a crank: rules for not being a science-dick

#40
"And death threats (and trolling, and weird online gender-flavoured violence) are not just deeply unpleasant, they’re CRIMES. If you do this, you are breaking the law AND being a shit human being, and you should either stop or walk yourself into the sun."

Death threats towards people that use death threats, really?

I don't like the article. Some people are more knowledgeable on a topic than others, "if you aren't in doubt you're probably wrong" doesn't apply there. Not even in general in my estimation.

A better alternative to "you have to sugarcoat all your thoughts by 30% before you speak them out" would be to train people to be better at taking criticism. People get spoiled by a high baseline positivity. I'd like to bring my points objectively without sugar coating, if everyone did that there would be no problem. Now i would have to either pretend to be more nice than i am ( talking behind people's back is a consequence of this), be straight to the point and get disliked by people who are used to sugar coating or keep silent. It usually boils down to the latter. Let me work alone if i can't be my critical self.

Also, this article seems to be mostly aimed at unfair criticism, let me pose the following.

If the criticism is fair and reasonable, it is justified, doesn't have to be nice, and the receiver is at fault if they dislike it.

If the criticism is not fair or reasonable, it is not justified, the criticizer should express uncertainty where applicable, they are at fault as the article suggests.

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