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Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

theguardian.com

31–40 of 170 posts

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because people share the same language, it doesn't mean they think the same, or share the same values. Many people around the world speak English, but they don't become culturally American or British because of it.

Toute l’expérience d’un individu est construit sur le plan de son langage. [An individual’s experience is built entirely in terms of his language.]

Perhaps, but y=x+1 and u=v+1 are the same, even if they use different terms. Likewise, y=x+1 !== y=x-1, even though they use the same terms.

It's really unclear to me that much harm will be done if everyone speaks the same language, and it's clear to me that there will be great benefits. That's an easy position for me to take as a primary speaker of the world's dominant language. It's also no skin off my back if other language groups wish to continue maintaining their own languages. But I guess that those which aren't strong enough will fade over the centuries, as many already did in the past.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#32

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

Considering how many Icelanders speak English at quite a high level, they seem perfectly capable of contributing to large scale projects around the world. Conversely, diversifying languages, cultures, and geographic locations seems like a more stable strategy for ensuring long-term human survival, compared to a fragile monoculture.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#33

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

I'll be that guy that brings up Esperanto. I don't speak it fluently yet, but know it faaar better than Spanish which I have years of formal instruction in and have been exposed to a lot of Latin American culture. The important point is I've gotten very comfortable with Esperanto with only < 50 hours of learning. When around the house I can think of small things in Esperanto without trying. Esperanto was invented to be an easy auxiliary language to easily allow the world to communicate. It is against language imperialism.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it a sustainable road? French-Canadians have been complaining for many years that Montreal's "bilingual" neighborhoods become English-speaking in a decade or so, and "French-speaking" neighborhoods become bilingual. And this is despite extensive government efforts to encourage or even enforce the use of French. You can see the same trends in Catalonia, Wales, Ireland, etc. Where the government intervenes in th…

Strasbourg was French from 1681, then German in 1871, then French in 1918. Then only briefly German in WWII. So it wasn't German very long, only 50 years. As for Montreal, it will be interesting to see how the city evolves. I notice more English in my neighbourhood than when I moved in (8 years ago). But, there is also more French in the old anglo neighbourhoods of the west. One factor is that a lot of "allophones" a…

“Germany” hasn’t been a country very long, only since 1871, but an identifiable German culture has existed since Roman times. German (or precursors) was spoken in Alsace for well over a millennium before declining and dying out in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#35
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the first half of a language dying. If everyone speaks Dutch and it's on signs and menus etc then learning Frisian has limited value.

I don't think so, or the language would have died out already. I'd argue it's more about whether children learn it as their primary language. Also, because of concerns of linguistic extinction, similar to the ones mentioned for Icelandic in the article, you see somewhat of a counter-movement as well. This caused e.g. a special status of the language by law (see e.g. [1]), and also: * it's a mandatory school subject *…

This stuff is not that fast. Give it 3-5+ generations.

The tipping point is IMO what language people start conversations with. That shifts language skills and feeds off it's self.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#36
In a world of agricultural monocultures, it's not really surprising that languages fade while others become increasingly dominant.

Language is really an artifact of isolation and distance. In an incredibly connected world, the pressure changes from divergence to convergence.

Like other commenters, I have mixed feelings about this. Another used the word "balkanized" (which is a great word) to describe a world divided by incomprehensible language.

Others note that a monoculture isn't the only solution. (Bi|multi)lingualism is another alternative. Multilingualism was the historical response to a world becoming increasingly connected. My great-grandfather grew up in an area where he spoke Russian, French, German and Latvian... by necessity. Depending on which way the political winds were blowing his generation could be conscripted into the Russian or German (maybe Prussian at this point) armies.

That works fine when your sphere is your country and neighbouring countries. But now the sphere is increasingly "the world".

Multilingualism seems to be somewhat cultural and, more importantly, is something that's passed down from one generation to the next. Older children and adults can (and do) acquire new languages with varying success (some are adept, others are not). It seems like if you don't have this from birth you're kinda screwed. If there's no pressure for you to use another language, you're also kinda screwed.

This comes up particularly in the English speaking world where those countries that have English as the predominant first language tend to have no pressure to use another language nor the cultural heritage of multilingualism.

It seems inevitable to me that the world is heading towards a future with a handful of remaining languages. Obvious candidates include English, Arabic, Mandarin, Spanish, Hindi and Russian.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#37

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, yes, it's a pity to see a cultural artifact like a language fade away. I get that. But on the other hand, having the world Balkanized into thousands of mutually incomprehensible linguistic ghettoes is a bad thing, because it makes it harder to get things done on large scales. Things would just be easier if we spoke a manageable handful of languages.

I'll be that guy that brings up Esperanto. I don't speak it fluently yet, but know it faaar better than Spanish which I have years of formal instruction in and have been exposed to a lot of Latin American culture. The important point is I've gotten very comfortable with Esperanto with only < 50 hours of learning. When around the house I can think of small things in Esperanto without trying. Esperanto was invented to…

> Esperanto was invented to be an easy auxiliary language to easily allow the world to communicate. It is against language imperialism.

It is only a rather recent development, since roughly the 1960s, that the Esperanto movement has advertised itself as a force against language imperialism and as purely an international second language for everyone, one that supposedly “protects” their native languages. Some Esperantists have criticized this change in marketing as simply trying to jump on the anti-imperialism and anti-globalization bandwagon just to get more attention for Esperanto.

L. L. Zamenhof himself hoped that Esperanto – or at least something like it – would eventually replace all world languages, because he saw those differences between peoples as purely a negative thing. (Just like his Homaranismo was an attempt to level out religious differences with a single spirituality that hopefully would be taken up by all.) Zamenhof’s own writings and his lifelong efforts show that he did not really care for cultural diversity as many people today would understand it and hope for.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#38
post #13

Just got back from Iceland! (I'm Canadian) Outside of the touristy parts of Reykjavik, everybody will assume you speak Icelandic until you respond in English. Then they'll switch to almost perfect English, with remarkably few exceptions. It was pretty amazing. In small towns like Akureryi, there's a lot of local pressure to keep signs mostly in Icelandic. I was actually surprised by this since there were a lot of Eng…

On the flip side, trying to learn the language of the country you’re in when everyone speaks fluent English kind of sucks exactly because everyone will just switch to English instead of let you practice. I suppose that’s the rub: to a local, when they notice you speaking (or, rather, trying to speak) a foreign language in a their country, are you struggling or trying to practice?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#39
post #2

Reverse example: I've only [1] let my child consume Swedish media (mostly the SVT app Barnkanalen, while we live in the US) and their accent is really good, and they often correct me and remind me of how something should be said. [1] Not 100%. They still watch e.g. Moana in English, or sometimes watch shows in German, French, some English ones, etc.

I think it would be especially difficult with children, since the English version tends to be the 'real' version. As such I would assume songs to just be more natural in english, and that tends to be the part children obsess over. I'm from the US, so I have the same problem from the other perspective, "Why learn a language when everyone speaks English." So you get a bunch of children who don't want to become bilingua…

Isn’t Spanish a globally important language as well?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#40
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because people share the same language, it doesn't mean they think the same, or share the same values. Many people around the world speak English, but they don't become culturally American or British because of it.

Toute l’expérience d’un individu est construit sur le plan de son langage. [An individual’s experience is built entirely in terms of his language.]

This is Sapir-Whorf thinking. My understanding as a non-linguist is that this has never been proven. I know there is a strong/weak form of the hypothesis, but can't remember what the distinction is.
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