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Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

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Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever try using it? It was awkward to use and slow. Even on the hardware that was specifically designed for.

Didn't own one but a friend had an N900. It seemed like a few things still needed polish, but it didn't seem slow to me - quite the opposite. He hung on to it for a good while too. My plan was to buy the next one at next contract change - of course that wasn't going to be possible. (I've always had a liking for the Communicator layout, going all the way back to Psion 3s)

I had a Nokia N810 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N810). It was a incredibly good device for the time and left other smart devices of its era in the dust, IMO. The lack of telephony is why I stopped using it but its functionality, perfect keyboard, superb browser, and a proper terminal made it something that I still remember very fondly, next to my Sharp Zaurus SL500.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#32
post #19
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It suffered from the same problem as all of Nokia's home grown software. The performance was shockingly bad - in an era of jelly scrolling, it was still using janky scroll-bars. It was clearly made by disparate teams who didn't talk to each other. The design language was all over the place, the radio performance inadequate, and there was no sensible way to develop or release apps for it. Nokia made brilliant fir…

Just to clarify, which device did you have? I had a N9, and I completely agree with the person above. The funniest thing is that when I got the phone and showed it to a friend who had just received the most recent Nexus at the time, the first thing he did was just scrolling, switching between apps and admiring how smooth everything was. The illusion faded quickly when you tried to open a web page with any javascript.…

I had the n810. See my contemporaneous thoughts at https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2009/05/nitdroid-installing-android...

I also had the N8, their last hurrah with Symbian. Three years after the iPhone launch and they were so far behind it was embarrassing.

https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2010/10/n8-fail-reasons-why-the-nok...

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#33
post #32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, which device did you have? I had a N9, and I completely agree with the person above. The funniest thing is that when I got the phone and showed it to a friend who had just received the most recent Nexus at the time, the first thing he did was just scrolling, switching between apps and admiring how smooth everything was. The illusion faded quickly when you tried to open a web page with any javascript.…

I had the n810. See my contemporaneous thoughts at https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2009/05/nitdroid-installing-android... I also had the N8, their last hurrah with Symbian. Three years after the iPhone launch and they were so far behind it was embarrassing. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2010/10/n8-fail-reasons-why-the-nok...

The N8 wasn't their last hurrah with Symbian, far from it. There was a massive difference in usability between that and the later Symbian Belle releases, and they were on a pretty rapid upward trajectory. Those last versions never reached the N8 (not enough memory?) but later Symbian models like my 700 did get them.

Symbian was always likely to be clumsy, but I was surprised how well they made it work by the end. (I should say, my Nokia 700 was my first and only Symbian phone, and I came into it expecting the worst, having heard a lot from other developers.)

I'm sure the N8 lost them a lot of fans though. I had some friends who were positively angry about it.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#34
post #29
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meego could have been killer, if they'd made the devices available, and shipped Alien Dalvik to bootstrap off of Android's app ecosystem. I've been using a Xperia X running Sailfish for the last week, and can't get over how well Android apps run along side beautiful native Sailfish apps. While Google Play Services are kinda hacky to get up and running, if you can live out of F-Droid and/or the Amazon app store, every…

BlackBerry tried that exact strategy with BlackBerry 10: brand new OS with an Android app compatibility layer. It didn't work. Nokia was coming from a similar position as BlackBerry, so I don't see how it would have worked for them either.

Having a compatibility layer alone is far from sufficient. BBOS 10 (at least on the Z30) was downright miserable to use. There was also a huge open source developer community surrounding Maemo/Meego that I'm not sure BBOS has ever seen.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#35
post #24
post #21

The old Nokia crowd seem to have a tough time admitting that all of Nokia's old software operations were beyond salvage by 2010. Symbian had turned into a sprawling pile of crap, and Maemo/MeeGo was painted in a corner by internal politics that had marginalized its development. Nokia was spending ten times as much as Apple on R&D, yet had very little to show for it. Having two competing OS teams was a bad choice made…

Meego could have been killer, if they'd made the devices available, and shipped Alien Dalvik to bootstrap off of Android's app ecosystem. I've been using a Xperia X running Sailfish for the last week, and can't get over how well Android apps run along side beautiful native Sailfish apps. While Google Play Services are kinda hacky to get up and running, if you can live out of F-Droid and/or the Amazon app store, every…

How is the Sailfish ecosystem now? Do they have nice native navigation, chat and browser applications?

Is it worth the switch over from F-Droid to Sailfish + F-Droid?

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#36
post #35
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meego could have been killer, if they'd made the devices available, and shipped Alien Dalvik to bootstrap off of Android's app ecosystem. I've been using a Xperia X running Sailfish for the last week, and can't get over how well Android apps run along side beautiful native Sailfish apps. While Google Play Services are kinda hacky to get up and running, if you can live out of F-Droid and/or the Amazon app store, every…

How is the Sailfish ecosystem now? Do they have nice native navigation, chat and browser applications? Is it worth the switch over from F-Droid to Sailfish + F-Droid?

Sadly the Sailfish ecosystem very much feels like it's on life support at this point. Many of the applications I remember from Meego are still seeing light maintenance, but many others still exist and function, but no longer see maintenance.

Jolla seems to have no interest in markets outside of Europe (I had to use a UK prepaid bank card and vpn to urchase it from the US), so a great many folks who would like to develop for it can't even get ahold of a device without jumping over hurdles.

I'm to use this phone until either the Librem 5 or Pyra ship, but won't hold my breath.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#37
post #21

The old Nokia crowd seem to have a tough time admitting that all of Nokia's old software operations were beyond salvage by 2010. Symbian had turned into a sprawling pile of crap, and Maemo/MeeGo was painted in a corner by internal politics that had marginalized its development. Nokia was spending ten times as much as Apple on R&D, yet had very little to show for it. Having two competing OS teams was a bad choice made…

I'm pretty confident that the choice of Windows Phone over Android really didn't have to do with the UI, or even with Elop's past Microsoft connections: it had to do with services. Nokia wanted to bring their own services to the platform, especially relating to maps and navigation, and they wanted to have the new OS vendor be a full branded partner. With Google, that was an either/or choice: they could have used AOSP…

>I'm pretty confident that the choice of Windows Phone over Android really didn't have to do with the UI, or even with Elop's past Microsoft connections

The book says otherwise. Elop met with Ballmer twice during the negotiations. He never once met with Google representatives even once.

Elop kept a physical distance from the negotiations. He and Schmidt had not met in a real negotiation even once. There were two or three phone negotiations, but there were only meetings at events, at the most. Elop was also not known to have met any of the other Google negotiators. This makes one wonder, when it is known that Elop met Microsoft’s Ballmer at least twice in direct negotiations.

>With Google, that was an either/or choice

No it wasn't. The book details how Google was prepared to make concessions for Nokia.

According to a source present, Google seemed to really want Nokia to join the Android world. The company assured that Android can be customized more than Nokia understood, especially compared with Windows Phone. Even if Google was criticized continuously for having Samsung, HTC and Sony Android phones differ from each other too much, Nokia would be given leeway to create its own user experience. Google saw that Nokia differentiated from these competitors in that it had a global area of operation. Nokia would be able to create better local services and user experiences for network providers and customers, one person present remembers being discussed. The Nokians also noticed that they had been living partially with misinformation. Nokia could continue with Android with its own maps side-by-side with Google’s maps. The same applied with the app store. Nokia’s music service as well as ovi.com could continue, as long as the phone had Google Play.

As the negotiations proceeded, a solution was found. Google offered Nokia, among other things, plenty of say in choosing the direction of Android development. By directing Android development to align with its own competitive goals, Nokia would gain some advantage, even if the changes would be available for everyone at the same time. Now Nokia was interested. Android and Nokia had an area where their interests converged in a brilliant way: Developing countries. If Android could be made to work on cheap hardware, Nokia would be best at getting in through in developing markets. The arrangement was enticing. Google would secure the position it was dreaming of in smartphones, and Nokia would become part of virgin Android markets. The precise details remained hidden, but Nokia was able to learn that Google worked Android into clearly cheaper models than Windows Phone.

Google made a substantial offer regarding distribution of income. Nokia would have gotten a portion of the income from Google’s search engine, app store, and other services which originate from Nokia phones, and the terms would be in relation to Nokia’s influence in the ecosystem. We don’t have information about precise percentages, but at any rate, Google’s promise was quite exceptional, considering that Nokia would still have been able to keep its own services in its phones.

Contrary to what Nokia has claimed, Google was ready for concessions. It was ready to flex as far as it could in the framework of OHA, and even then some more.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#38
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BlackBerry tried that exact strategy with BlackBerry 10: brand new OS with an Android app compatibility layer. It didn't work. Nokia was coming from a similar position as BlackBerry, so I don't see how it would have worked for them either.

Having a compatibility layer alone is far from sufficient. BBOS 10 (at least on the Z30) was downright miserable to use. There was also a huge open source developer community surrounding Maemo/Meego that I'm not sure BBOS has ever seen.

I had multiple Maemo devices — the 770, 800 and N900 tablets.

I really tried hard to like the system, but let's not exaggerate its strengths. The open source software was mostly amateur ports from desktop Linux.

I remember back in 2008 demoing my Nokia 800 mini tablet to someone who had got a brand new iPhone 3G. There just wasn't any contest. The Maemo software felt like a product of the '90s, and the hardware clearly wasn't by Nokia's "A Team".

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty confident that the choice of Windows Phone over Android really didn't have to do with the UI, or even with Elop's past Microsoft connections: it had to do with services. Nokia wanted to bring their own services to the platform, especially relating to maps and navigation, and they wanted to have the new OS vendor be a full branded partner. With Google, that was an either/or choice: they could have used AOSP…

I like your explanation about services. One thing - > I was a little shocked that they didn't release a Qt compatibility layer for Windows Phone Windows Phone 7, which was current at the time of the switch, was managed-code only (i.e. .NET). There was no way to port Qt to it and no way to leverage any experience that developers for their existing platforms already had. That was one reason the switch was so dramatic.

> Windows Phone 7...was managed-code only.

D'oh! I didn't know that. (I was laid off right before the Windows Phone switch was announced, so never had any reason to look into it.) Welp.

Re: Operation Elop: The final years of Nokia’s mobile phones

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty confident that the choice of Windows Phone over Android really didn't have to do with the UI, or even with Elop's past Microsoft connections: it had to do with services. Nokia wanted to bring their own services to the platform, especially relating to maps and navigation, and they wanted to have the new OS vendor be a full branded partner. With Google, that was an either/or choice: they could have used AOSP…

>I'm pretty confident that the choice of Windows Phone over Android really didn't have to do with the UI, or even with Elop's past Microsoft connections The book says otherwise. Elop met with Ballmer twice during the negotiations. He never once met with Google representatives even once. Elop kept a physical distance from the negotiations. He and Schmidt had not met in a real negotiation even once. There were two or t…

Interesting. That (obviously) contradicts what I heard at the time from folks I was still in contact with, but I'll take the book's word on it. What you quote doesn't entirely contradict the notion that Microsoft offered what Nokia considered a better deal, though, especially if Nokia wanted only their services rather than "side-by-side" services. (Although Nokia traded away a lot, anyway, as it played out.)
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