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What they say about age is true

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Re: What they say about age is true

#31

Post by discreteevent »

pg wrote: post #15
maddalab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

The answer may be related to the early age at which mathematicians seem to peak. Another factor is the rate of change in technology. Mere experience may be an obstacle there. When you start knowing nothing and pick a technology to learn, you naturally tend to pick the newest one. Whereas for an old person, learning new technologies is something you do out of duty as much as eagerness. An old person learning new techn…

Fair enough but as you said the young person is "learning to build stuff". There is an advantage in this in that they have a beginners mind and may well come up with a new and better way of doing things. But that is probably one in a hundred. In my experience (and this is an observation not a grouch) a lot of them just end up making a brilliant mess that only becomes apparent when the project gets to a certain size. Not all of them, mind you, some are so good so young that they manage to accumulate experience and judgement faster than anybody else. But there are simply not enough of them to go around. In the meantime someone who has learned about this stuff the hard way (and has the capability to reflect on it) can lend some guidance that can so that we get the brilliance without the mess. One more thing - building architects often do their greatest work in their 60s. Software is not that dissimilar in that its about design and complexity. If I were starting out I would like the idea that I am entering a field where I have the potential to improve with age like that. Norvig's "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years" hints that its possible that that may be the case but its not recognized by the industry.

Re: What they say about age is true

#32

Post by erikstarck »

I wouldn't hire Dave Winer in a startup because he is an internet legend and I would assume he was very expensive.

Part of his salary would probably have to go on the marketing account but I'm sure there are wiser ways to spend that money in a startup.

I would be more OK with having him in a technical advisory role or something similar. That would give me most of the publicity value at a much lower price. (I would then of course also make sure his experience was utilized to the fullest extent possible, probably as a mentor to the tech team.)

Not sure he would like that, though.

Re: What they say about age is true

#33

Post by neilk »

nostrademons wrote: post #16
neilk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we use this to make a new heuristic for knowing when one is being closed-minded? You're good at coming up with those sorts of things. The "X is exactly the same as Y" is one, I think. I got in an argument with someone who asserted that Twitter was exactly the same as the old Unix utility 'talk'. Of course, how do you distinguish between obviously boring reinventions and stuff that really will have an impact?

My Intro Philosophy professor phrased it like this: "If you want to sound smart in front of your friends, make a distinction." Our judgments of how intelligent people are usually come from how many relevant details they are able to see that we would otherwise have missed. So someone who asserts that Twitter is exactly the same as 'talk' is dumb. Someone who asserts that Twitter is exactly the same as 'talk', except t…

Yeah, but I think your philosophy prof was suggesting that useless distinctions are the stock in trade of tiny minds.

For instance, a web client that allows you to use IRC protocol is generally Just-The-Same-As-IRC. Putting it on the web doesn't do anything really different, except maybe that one doesn't have the inconvenience of installing IRC software.

But let's say that you had a really good help channel for your website, but that users of your website didn't typically find their way to IRC. Putting an IRC client right in the web page itself, configured to go straight to this help channel, is suddenly more of an innovation.

I don't know how to phrase this right, but there is a knack of noticing material distinctions, rather than useless ones. Maybe it's in noticing when certain limitations have been removed or added.

Maybe the real problem is that we're often unaware of how limited our world is, and what is doing the limiting. Perhaps the only way to notice when limitations have been removed is by sheer luck or that mysterious force called "creativity".

You couldn't have a mind that was constantly probing every tool for every limitation. Could you?

Re: What they say about age is true

#34

Post by maddalab »

dasil003 wrote: post #25
maddalab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

I have yet to hear a cogent argument on why folks in their late 40s or early 50s are not adequately represented in programming positions start ups or otherwise. What is unique about programming as a practice that make it unsuitable for professional beyond a certain age? Because programming is concerned with "details", it was considered clerical work from the beginning. Look at the indignities suffered by Jean Bartik…

Is it possible that you are confusing the context with the specifics when it comes to the sport analogy?

On the aspect of practice, why is practice from the ages of 6-21, 15 yrs any different than practice from 15-45, 30 yrs. The answer may lie in what you say, "programming is considered clerical work". That being the case it becomes the responsibility of those currently in the profession to make sure that those who are in the stages of making a choice are adequately aware of it. Tho, it would make me sad if that were truly the case. I do not believe that to be the case.

Re: What they say about age is true

#35

Post by iuytrfghj »

maddalab wrote: post #12
pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

>I certainly do not have the answers

Perhaps the hip young trendy 20 somethings at startups wouldn't dream of discriminating against somebody black or gay - but they don't feel comfortable telling a 50year old what to do. Or worse finding that they hired a 50year old that knows more than them.

Re: What they say about age is true

#36

Post by discreteevent »

bconway wrote: post #20

If you invest in tech companies, try bringing in some tech experience. It might push your comfort level. It also might make you much more competitive. Let me know when you're willing to take startup pay ( real startup pay, not $100K instead of $130K). Most 50 year-olds that I talk to aren't.

Ok but what if someone with talent and experience will deliver you value worth three times "startup pay" but only wants twice it. I'm sure you would have no argument about hiring them as the economics speak for themselves. So hiring people based on whether they will accept exactly 1 x startup pay is a limiting tactic unless you believe that its not possible that talent and experience will actually deliver that much extra value to you - in which case there is no argument.

Re: What they say about age is true

#37

Post by philwelch »

dasil003 wrote: post #25
maddalab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

I have yet to hear a cogent argument on why folks in their late 40s or early 50s are not adequately represented in programming positions start ups or otherwise. What is unique about programming as a practice that make it unsuitable for professional beyond a certain age? Because programming is concerned with "details", it was considered clerical work from the beginning. Look at the indignities suffered by Jean Bartik…

Were the ENIAC's programmers really "programmers" in today's sense of the term, or were they more like compilers, while program designers or systems analysts (not sure what the contemporary term was) were closer to what we would recognize as programmers?

Re: What they say about age is true

#39

Post by jedwhite »

pg wrote: post #15
maddalab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

The answer may be related to the early age at which mathematicians seem to peak. Another factor is the rate of change in technology. Mere experience may be an obstacle there. When you start knowing nothing and pick a technology to learn, you naturally tend to pick the newest one. Whereas for an old person, learning new technologies is something you do out of duty as much as eagerness. An old person learning new techn…

There is a correlation between attitude and age. But this is actually a question of attitude rather than age per se.

If I couldn't get a job programming I'd do it for free. Heck, I'm working on a startup so I basically am doing it for free. It's the thrill of making something other people find useful.

From the people I know and have worked with, the older the programmer, the less likely that attitude has survived.

Re: What they say about age is true

#40

Post by neilk »

tomjen3 wrote: post #21

I call bullshit. If there where a systematic discrimination against any group of people, some startup could win big by hirering these people that are as good, but nobody seem to be willing to pay for. But since not a single one has done so (at least publically), something else must be stopping them.

That argument is frequently made to deny the existence of any form of discrimination. Note that it would have applied to say, black people in the 1950s in the USA.
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