Live data from Hacker News

Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

reddit.com

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on if you want factual technical measurements or subjective human opinions

If it's double blind isn't it objective?

Only if all humans have the same opinion about what good audio sounds like.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#32
post #10

What surprises me most are the rave reviews in the absence of stereo (coming later), which I always thought was de rigueur for audiophiles. I look forward to those future reviews.

There are 7 tweeters in each Pod. Not only does a single Pod do stereo, it will analyse the surroundings to make use of walls etc to make wider stereo than it could just do by naively choosing a side speaker.

Stereo requires two horizontally displaced time-coherent sources. There is no other meaning.

If you're bouncing audio off walls you may get ambience, but you're not going to get a clean stereo image.

Also, the KEF speakers are hardly world beaters. They have a good reputation as PC speakers, but that's not setting the bar very high.

Professional speaker manufacturers like Genelec use a similar adaptive tuning system, and you can buy a microphone and software add-on to flatten the response of any speaker.

https://www.sonarworks.com/reference

The limitations are well known. The correction curve is level-dependent, because room resonance is a time domain phenomenon created by physical standing waves in a 3D space that includes damping elements, and you can't truly correct it with a frequency domain solution.

You can approximate a time-domain correction with convolution and some assumptions about the room geometry and acoustics, but it's never going to be perfect.

Bottom line: I'm sure the Homepod sounds very nice, and - as usual - it's innovating with technology that's been available elsewhere for a while, and made much easier to use.

But it's not magic, and it's not going to sound hugely better than a much more expensive true stereo system.

Of course that'll do just fine for a lot of buyers.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#33
post #11
post #3

Great marketing to let an obvious fan (check his history) who loves writing get an early look at your product.

He was very open & clear I thought: "I also paid full price for this HomePod, with my own money. I paid for all the equipment to measure it with, and I own every speaker in featured in this review." This is very clear too: "Neither KEF, nor Apple is paying me to write this review, nor have they ever paid me in the past." This wasn't necessary, in my opinion, but again is very open: "At the same time, I’m a huge apple…

"He was very open & clear I thought:"

It could be just to make the review feel more authentic, and also both advertisers and audience are getting smarter.

This is not a statement about this particular reviewer, just my thoughts.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on if you want factual technical measurements or subjective human opinions

If it's double blind isn't it objective?

It's as objective as a subjective measurement can get.

It's not repeatable, and I don't know what units of measure could be used either.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#35
post #19

Is it better to test audio products with a meter or with double blind humans?

I've been convinced by a knowledgeable person[1] that measurements are the only useful way to measure performance. To paraphrase poorly: subjective reviews are useless since they are limited by the reviewers subjective perception, their ability to turn that perception into words, and your ability to turn those words into a concrete idea about how something sounds. Since there is no part of a speaker's performance that cannot be precisely measured, the best course of action is to learn how each measurement affects your perception and what qualities you like in a speaker. Then you can fairly accurately evaluate if you would like a speaker with just a few graphs.

(Of course this is completely impractical for almost everyone, but I'm talking about some platonic ideal of audiophile)

1: http://zaphaudio.com/

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#36
>I'm an EDM guy and demand a certain performance to 20hz, which homepod lacks.

I've checked a lot of dance music and never found anything with meaningful 20Hz content. It's extremely rare for "deep bass" to be lower than 40Hz. The only genre I can think of that often has very deep bass is pipe organ music.

EDIT: Movie soundtracks also commonly have <40Hz content for sound effects.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#37
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 7 tweeters in each Pod. Not only does a single Pod do stereo, it will analyse the surroundings to make use of walls etc to make wider stereo than it could just do by naively choosing a side speaker.

Stereo requires two horizontally displaced time-coherent sources. There is no other meaning. If you're bouncing audio off walls you may get ambience, but you're not going to get a clean stereo image. Also, the KEF speakers are hardly world beaters. They have a good reputation as PC speakers, but that's not setting the bar very high. Professional speaker manufacturers like Genelec use a similar adaptive tuning system,…

>There is no other meaning.

Apparently there is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereophonic_sound

"Stereophonic sound or, more commonly, stereo, is a method of sound reproduction that creates an illusion of multi-directional audible perspective. This is usually achieved by using two or more independent audio channels through a configuration of two or more loudspeakers (or stereo headphones) in such a way as to create the impression of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing.[1]"

I'm inferring from that there are other methods to create an illusion of multi-directional audible perspective.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#38

What surprises me most are the rave reviews in the absence of stereo (coming later), which I always thought was de rigueur for audiophiles. I look forward to those future reviews.

I'm no audiophile, I do realize from reading speakers review in audiophile magazine that they tend to compare speakers in the same particular price range. The OP review seems to suggest that a dual HomePod stereo setup (about $700-800) could well compete with audiophile grade speakers in sub $1000 range. It is great feat by Apple if they can achieve it with their stereo release later this year. HomePod is "engineered" sound with its surrounding acoustic adjustment etc and I bet a large portion of audiophile prefers their gears to have a more faithful reproduction of source material. Anyway HomePod will not be the only gear for hardcore audiophile as they tend to have exotic source material equipment which HomePod can not accept. It is interesting to see in near future when dual HomePod can be used with AppleTV for movie viewing with simulated centre speaker and surround sound. I remembered Tim Cook said they finally cracked home TV few years back, maybe HomePod + AppleTV is the solution.

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#39
post #36

>I'm an EDM guy and demand a certain performance to 20hz, which homepod lacks. I've checked a lot of dance music and never found anything with meaningful 20Hz content. It's extremely rare for "deep bass" to be lower than 40Hz. The only genre I can think of that often has very deep bass is pipe organ music. EDIT: Movie soundtracks also commonly have <40Hz content for sound effects.

This. Even with a giant subwoofer system, 20 hz is more felt than heard. The "deep 808 bass drum" usually centered between 40-60 hz. My Tr-808 was centered at ~53 hz. Keep in mind that a doubling of frequency is an octave, so 26.5 hz would be an octave down and 106hz would be an octave higher

Re: Apple HomePod – The Audiophile Perspective and Measurements

#40

I'm no audiophile, and I don't plan on getting a HomePod, but the interesting tidbits to me were the following: >Apple uses Balanced Mode Radiators (BMRs) instead of industry typical tweeters. They have a response range of ~250Hz-20kHz, whereas typical tweeters have a range of 2kHz-20kHz. Here is gif of a BMR compared to other speaker technologies [1] >Apple applies Equal-loundness contours[2] to equalize absolute en…

> That is, the dB of sounds in the 2KHz-5KHz is decreased by several decibels, because the human ear is more sensitive to them. I would expect recorded material to already account for this. Does anyone know why Apple finds it needed to further apply sound shaping to recorded sound? (That is, I would expect audiophile-grade equipment to best mimic the monitors on which most recordings are mixed, which presumably is a…

>(That is, I would expect audiophile-grade equipment to best mimic the monitors on which most recordings are mixed, which presumably is a flat loudness curve.)

Not necessarily, because that assumes the audio was mixed correctly to begin with. The audio will have to be played back over digital and analog broadcasts with varying dynamic range characteristics, not to mention various output technologies, including $5 headphones. And not to mention how the shape of each persons ear affects the response curve in different ways.

There is no way for an engineer to produce a rendition that sounds great in all of those scenarios, making 'mimicking the monitor' a pointless pursuit to begin with - even IF you were an audiophile listening to 400MB DSD files.

>Does anyone know why Apple finds it needed to further apply sound shaping to recorded sound?

I'd say the vast vast majority of people want more to have the audiophile label/association than actually listen to music with a flat curve, because most music will sound like crap.

Sorry for the rant :P

Post reply on HN