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Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

nytimes.com

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Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#31

Post by oh_sigh »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #20
themgt wrote: post #4

As far as I can tell, the entire "Out of Africa" model taken for granted within the MSM is being treated with increasing skepticism/nuance by scientists actually studying the facts on the ground, leading to these odd & increasingly ancient "first modern out of Africa" stories which may be confusing the public more than they're illuminating the history of human populations. Razib Khan had a good short primer on this t…

Every time I see someone talk about "the MSM" as a pejorative like this, I laugh, mostly at you, because the alternative is literally conspiracy theorists and, of course, the far right. And, indeed, a quick search for Razib Khan brings up this: https://undark.org/article/race-science-razib-khan-racism/

What exactly is your point here? Should scientists drop whatever they are working on if racists like it?

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#33

Post by marshray »

oh_sigh wrote: post #31
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see someone talk about "the MSM" as a pejorative like this, I laugh, mostly at you, because the alternative is literally conspiracy theorists and, of course, the far right. And, indeed, a quick search for Razib Khan brings up this: https://undark.org/article/race-science-razib-khan-racism/

What exactly is your point here? Should scientists drop whatever they are working on if racists like it?

I think the point is that Kahn, as a regular contributor to explicitly racist websites, is not likely to be a good source from which to obtain an objective summary of the latest news in paleogenetics.

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#34

Post by Nomentatus »

themgt wrote: post #9
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know the scientific consensus is still on the Out of Africa theory.

You can read John Hawks, quoted in this post's linked NYT article, with his own take on recent findings[1], echoing many of the points made by Razib Khan. Even Chris Stringer, one of most vocal & staunch advocates for a simple Out of Africa has recently walked that back [2] If you are reading experts still standing behind a simplistic Out of Africa model after all the recent findings of archaic admixture and incredib…

There is one massive clue pointing to Africa: more genetic diversity there. This doesn't rule out interesting additions from other populations that left earlier than others, went further than we thought, etc; but it is the elephant in the room. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24984772

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#35

Post by thephyber »

badosu wrote: post #22
pdog wrote: post #13

Every couple of months, we find new fossil evidence that "rewrites" the history of our species. At what point is the theory just wrong?

The theory is always 'wrong' if 'correct' means fitting the data perfectly. Having to adjust the parameters of the model and having to change the fundamental aspects (e.g. humans came from Africa) are different things.

It's interesting how you chose the oppose of "wrong" with "correct"; my first thought was "right".

Right/wrong is most commonly used in a moral framework. Correct/incorrect seems more apt during application of an observed value to an expected value.

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#36

Post by badosu »

thephyber wrote: post #35
badosu wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory is always 'wrong' if 'correct' means fitting the data perfectly. Having to adjust the parameters of the model and having to change the fundamental aspects (e.g. humans came from Africa) are different things.

It's interesting how you chose the oppose of "wrong" with "correct"; my first thought was "right". Right/wrong is most commonly used in a moral framework. Correct/incorrect seems more apt during application of an observed value to an expected value.

You're right

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#37

Post by oh_sigh »

marshray wrote: post #33
oh_sigh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is your point here? Should scientists drop whatever they are working on if racists like it?

I think the point is that Kahn, as a regular contributor to explicitly racist websites, is not likely to be a good source from which to obtain an objective summary of the latest news in paleogenetics.

Did we read the same article from the GP?

> For all of this, dismissing Khan as a crank would be a mistake. While his associations are extremist, his science is not, and very little of what he writes about human genetics falls outside the pale of ordinary scientific discourse.

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#38

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

oh_sigh wrote: post #37
marshray wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that Kahn, as a regular contributor to explicitly racist websites, is not likely to be a good source from which to obtain an objective summary of the latest news in paleogenetics.

Did we read the same article from the GP? > For all of this, dismissing Khan as a crank would be a mistake. While his associations are extremist, his science is not, and very little of what he writes about human genetics falls outside the pale of ordinary scientific discourse.

And if you read yet further:

> Most scientists will object to this application of their work, but the illiberal challenges to scientific scholarship, perhaps now more than ever, seem destined to come not just from creationists and neo-skinheads, but from self-styled hyper-rationalists, too — from people who adhere to what they consider a “science-first” worldview, who often ignore history and social context, and who are predisposed to drawing troubling, and sometimes patently racist conclusions based on otherwise dispassionate science.

> In other words, they’ll come from people who sound a lot like Razib Khan.

My critique is that there is only one demographic in the US that attacks with the term "MSM" and then leads right into referencing this guy. "Mainstream media" used like this is a fingers-in-your-ears right wing in-group catch phrase and has been for probably more than two decades. And when a person using that secret handshake references something like this, it leads the observant to wonder.

The question isn't whether a scientist should drop work if racists like it, but rather whether a scientist would work diligently to associate with racist publications without aligning motive.

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#39

Post by burfog »

sigil wrote: post #18
haberman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend a good primer on what we know about evolution and the history of our species, and the supporting evidence? I thought The Selfish Gene would be this, but it seemed primarily focused on more abstract/philosophical questions, like group selection vs. gene selection. I'm more interested in concrete information about what our DNA and the fossil record can credibly establish. I want to know what facts are…

It sounds like there's precious little certainty to be had [1]: So far, nobody has recovered ancient DNA from archaic human skeletal remains in Africa. The 2000-year-old Ballito Bay boy is not the oldest, but there are no DNA results from truly archaic specimens, like the Kabwe skull from Zambia. As a result, we don’t have the kind of record within Africa that geneticists have built for Neanderthals and Denisovans in…

Short faces and rounded braincases would affect the surface-to-volume ratio. This would help with cold-weather survival.

Re: Jawbone of Earliest Modern Human Out of Africa Discovered in Israeli Cave

#40

Post by burfog »

skimaskninja87 wrote: post #7

Melanated people (aka Africans, which is a European term) were the first Hebrews and Arabs. "Africans" who migrated East to China, then back migrated after they went through mutation, and mixed with the original people. But of course, no one would believe it unless, well, you already know. Hopefully all the "pseudo-scholars" who spread this knowledge can rest easy now. Most of them died broke while these "discoverers…

The current population of Syria is the closest genetic match to Egyptian mummies.
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