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Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

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Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#31

Post by matt4077 »

dominotw wrote: post #23
Jedi72 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early in my career (it began after a discussion in a tutorial during my undergrad) I made a choice to never to use my engineering skills to build weapons. I don't believe its a morally justifiable choice in this century. It's not like I have been forced to starve as a result but it did reduce a few opportunities.

> I don't believe its a morally justifiable choice in this century. Could we say that nuclear(and other) weapons are responsible for the bringing unprecedented world peace to the world?

Probably not. There are many countries not engaging in warfare even though they do not have nuclear weapons. Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, do not possess them, nor is there an obvious mechanism why the US' (or Britain's/France's) nuclear arsenal would discourage a war between these nations.

The US, meanwhile, has been engaged in wars almost non-stop since WW2. It's "unprecedented world peace" for for only a select few nations.

And, most importantly, the costs of failure have gone up dramatically with the invention of nuclear weapons. The Cuban Missile Crises is just one of several near-catastrophic events. Sooner or later, we will get a madman in a position of power, fall victim to a misunderstanding, or suffer a technical failure.

And that'll be that...

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#32

Post by matt4077 »

myaso wrote: post #6
amelius wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need an equivalent of the hippocratic oath for software engineers: I swear by Hephaestus, the ugly god of crafts, that I shall not use my skills for controlling and tracking ...

Great, these who want to build these things will simply hire people who don't subscribe to this oath ... And now the organization will be populated by a whole tribe of people who have no qualms about doing this -- does that sound like something that will make things better? Aside: the book looked interesting. Skimmed it, beautiful typesetting, not gratuitously mathematical, looked readable -- I may be wrong, but it's…

> Great, these who want to build these things will simply hire people who don't subscribe to this oath ..

Morally, this argument quite obviously fails because it could be used to justify anything.

Practically, we see many professions where people of character have successfully resisted temptation: every government employee who is not corrupt comes to mind.

And even if they'll just hire the next guy/gal: If you say no to an offer, you were, by definition, their top choice. That next one down the ladder will therefore be slightly worse, making such businesses less profitable.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#33

Post by myaso »

matt4077 wrote: post #32
myaso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, these who want to build these things will simply hire people who don't subscribe to this oath ... And now the organization will be populated by a whole tribe of people who have no qualms about doing this -- does that sound like something that will make things better? Aside: the book looked interesting. Skimmed it, beautiful typesetting, not gratuitously mathematical, looked readable -- I may be wrong, but it's…

> Great, these who want to build these things will simply hire people who don't subscribe to this oath .. Morally, this argument quite obviously fails because it could be used to justify anything . Practically, we see many professions where people of character have successfully resisted temptation: every government employee who is not corrupt comes to mind. And even if they'll just hire the next guy/gal: If you say n…

Top choice based on a search with finite resources, maybe there is a better top choice if they spend a bit more time -- one that is also more agreeable. I'll return with a question -- Is resisting temptation the path of least resistance? What are the odds that the personality trait you describe also overlaps with the person being in a position of enough authority to actually matter?

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#34

Post by randcraw »

myaso wrote: post #26
randcraw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how are cigarette companies going to make money if they are hindered in addicting you and giving you cancer? Legally of course. Software engineers are surrogates for ALL jobs because software is used everywhere . When we serve medicine, we should be obliged to take the Hippocratic oath. When we serve the military or intel agencies (with a security clearance), we ARE obliged to take an formal oath of secrecy. IMHO…

Really? As a former smoker I don't place cigarettes and software in even remotely the same category. Ok -- question. How will this be enforced? Legal/Medical/Eng have licenses to practice you can lose these licenses. I don't need anybody's approval to write code, all the tools are available for free. You are naive if you think some feel good words on paper can make this work without some force backing these words.

Let's say you're a programmer working for a tobacco company. Or for an alcohol distillery making only the most down-market 'ripple' products, inevitably consumed only by destitute inebriates dwelling in the dungeons of life. Do you really imagine that you bear no responsibility for the impact of your work when you enable the perpetuation of pain?

I've worked for several past employers whom I now disrespect (and whose leadership since earned them this disrepute), so this issue isn't merely hypothetical for me.

The principal question isn't about policing and punishment. It's about civic duty as an enlightened human being. Each of us either takes responsibility for our actions and does no harm, or we willingly do. On our part, that necessitates continuous diligence taking an interest in how the products of our work affects others.

Software has become an inescapable part of our society's technical and social infrastructure. Like scientists and engineers, S/W pros bear responsibility for how our work is used. And how it's abused. That's all I'm saying. Each of us has to work out the details for ourself, but dismissing them outright shirks that duty, and I believe, diminishes our humanity bit by bit.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#35

Post by myaso »

randcraw wrote: post #34
myaso wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? As a former smoker I don't place cigarettes and software in even remotely the same category. Ok -- question. How will this be enforced? Legal/Medical/Eng have licenses to practice you can lose these licenses. I don't need anybody's approval to write code, all the tools are available for free. You are naive if you think some feel good words on paper can make this work without some force backing these words.

Let's say you're a programmer working for a tobacco company. Or for an alcohol distillery making only the most down-market 'ripple' products, inevitably consumed only by destitute inebriates dwelling in the dungeons of life. Do you really imagine that you bear no responsibility for the impact of your work when you enable the perpetuation of pain? I've worked for several past employers whom I now disrespect (and whose…

People have the mistaken belief that the ideal possible world is actually one with no pain. The best solution possible with finite resources is maybe somewhere short of the the best you imagine -- to live is to suffer as they say.

You had shitty leaders I'm sorry about that, but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation -- it's probably not all fun choices. Or maybe they were just assholes -- updated.

I do not disagree with you on the "why" -- as Grove said I want to know how? You assume that each person can be trusted to figure this out for themselves -- maybe some people can be, but if you look at the entire population you will end with a distribution where more and more force will need to be used to coerce the fringe elements into compliance -- these fringes can destabilize the entire equilibrium since it might snow ball out of control as more and more people pile on seeing the benefits that it brings.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#36

Post by dominotw »

matt4077 wrote: post #31
dominotw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe its a morally justifiable choice in this century. Could we say that nuclear(and other) weapons are responsible for the bringing unprecedented world peace to the world?

Probably not. There are many countries not engaging in warfare even though they do not have nuclear weapons. Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, do not possess them, nor is there an obvious mechanism why the US' (or Britain's/France's) nuclear arsenal would discourage a war between these nations. The US, meanwhile, has been engaged in wars almost non-stop since WW2. It's "unprecedented world peace" for for only…

https://persuademepolitics.com/2016/03/23/now-the-most-peace...

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#37

Post by amelius »

myaso wrote: post #35
randcraw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you're a programmer working for a tobacco company. Or for an alcohol distillery making only the most down-market 'ripple' products, inevitably consumed only by destitute inebriates dwelling in the dungeons of life. Do you really imagine that you bear no responsibility for the impact of your work when you enable the perpetuation of pain? I've worked for several past employers whom I now disrespect (and whose…

People have the mistaken belief that the ideal possible world is actually one with no pain . The best solution possible with finite resources is maybe somewhere short of the the best you imagine -- to live is to suffer as they say. You had shitty leaders I'm sorry about that, but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation -- it's probably not all fun choices. Or maybe they were just assholes -- update…

> but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation

Then let them prove it! That's one thing an ethical code will ensure.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#38

Post by myaso »

amelius wrote: post #37
myaso wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have the mistaken belief that the ideal possible world is actually one with no pain . The best solution possible with finite resources is maybe somewhere short of the the best you imagine -- to live is to suffer as they say. You had shitty leaders I'm sorry about that, but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation -- it's probably not all fun choices. Or maybe they were just assholes -- update…

> but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation Then let them prove it! That's one thing an ethical code will ensure.

There is a asymmetry of how they percieve the world and you do -- the difference in available information might not be able to let them make choices that would satisfy your standards.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#39

Post by amelius »

myaso wrote: post #38
amelius wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but maybe they were trying their best in a difficult situation Then let them prove it! That's one thing an ethical code will ensure.

There is a asymmetry of how they percieve the world and you do -- the difference in available information might not be able to let them make choices that would satisfy your standards.

That's what communication is for. It also happens to be a function of an ethical code.

Re: Speech and Language Processing, 3rd ed. draft (2017)

#40

Post by gspetr »

matt4077 wrote: post #31
dominotw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe its a morally justifiable choice in this century. Could we say that nuclear(and other) weapons are responsible for the bringing unprecedented world peace to the world?

Probably not. There are many countries not engaging in warfare even though they do not have nuclear weapons. Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, do not possess them, nor is there an obvious mechanism why the US' (or Britain's/France's) nuclear arsenal would discourage a war between these nations. The US, meanwhile, has been engaged in wars almost non-stop since WW2. It's "unprecedented world peace" for for only…

There would be nothing to be gained in that war for either country.

You don't need territory (at least at a price that steep) and you certainly don't need slave labor in 2018.

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