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Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

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Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#31

Post by rplnt »

watwut wrote: post #16
rplnt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from But the "bay pay" isn't for your work. It's so you can work - i.e. cover your expenses associated with working at that particular place.

Janitors, receptionists nor cooks get such high salaries, altrough the place is the same.

If I were to look up salaries for those positions in bay area, they would be equal to those in rural Montana? If that's the argument you are making, I have no data to disprove it, so I would have to believe you, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#32

Post by TomMarius »

czechdeveloper wrote: post #29
antonkm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is your/the "Bay Area Rate"? Thinking about internationalization of my consultancy and have no real insight into hourly rates for devs in the US. Don't want to leave too much money on the table because I haven't done my research.

EDIT: This comment was incorrect and I do not wish for more down votes. ORIGINAL: I believe it should be about 100 USD/hour for skilled consultant, but maybe someone with more experience can correct that.

For employment yes, consultant or contractor (which you probably will be if you're remote) can make double or more. 100 USD/hour is Prague, Czech Republic-level rate for a skilled consultant.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#33

Post by welly »

rplnt wrote: post #28
welly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it? Given a situation with two developers working remotely with exactly the same skills, experience and knowledge on the same project, but one works in India, the other one works in the Bay area. Can you give me one valid reason why the developer in India should get a penny less than the developer in the Bay area? And that the cost of living is less in India than in SF is not, in my opinion, a valid reason. You…

> You pay your developers, or any staff come to that, what they're worth to you. It's not that easy. What they are worth to you is your upper limit. What they are willing to work for is the lower bound. It's composed of many things, mostly supply and demand, but not an insignificant portion is living expenses. Most employers would gravitate towards the lower bound. And for a dev in India, it might be reasonable to pa…

I certainly realise that developers (or other employees) aren't, and likely will never be, paid the same despite where they live. I accept that is the reality, however is it reasonable? I don't believe it is at all reasonable to pay developers in India less, if they're able to perform their duties in the same manner as a developer in a western nation.

Developers in India are generally paid less because employers can, which is clearly why companies look to employ staff in India.

As a developer living in the UK, while I don't work remotely (often), if I was in a position to do so and decided I was going to move to India, I certainly wouldn't expect my employer to cut my salary as a result. If they did, I'd be out of the door and looking for a new employer promptly.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#34

Post by rplnt »

Fredej wrote: post #15
rplnt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work you're doing is exactly the same regardless of where you do it from But the "bay pay" isn't for your work. It's so you can work - i.e. cover your expenses associated with working at that particular place.

They are willing to pay up to what the work is worth for them. The work is not worth more just because you happen to live in the bay area.

No, you actually pay as little as possible to keep the employee happy and working for you. The living expenses move with this lower bound.

More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16051409

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#35

Post by jasonkester »

rplnt wrote: post #30
jasonkester wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just up the beach from my $6/night bungalow in Thailand there was a resort that costs $1,500/night. The work I'd do from there would be functionally equivalent from my employers' perspective. So as long as we're covering expenses, I'd prefer they cover mine at that second place. The fact that I might actually be living cheaper is none of their concern.

If there's an equally qualified dev willing to take $1494/day less, employer would take that one. But if the only available people live in resorts, then the employer has no choice.

Indeed. The key is to never be that developer who leaves all that money on the table. The company you're negotiating against will be happy to take it.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#36

Post by billsix »

> (And before you ask, sorry, we’re actually not hiring. That’s part of the restraint bit. We have a team of fifty five of the most kind, wonderful, and capable people I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with. That’s all we need at the moment to do what we want to do.)

Did the author just pull a "Cartmanland"? :-)

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/152804/cartmanland-commercial

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#37

Post by jasonlfunk »

This is really an interesting idea.

Since the developers who live in cheaper parts of the country/world are now, effectively, paid more than those who live expensive parts of the world, are they not incentivizing employees to move out of the big cities?

I'm also curious about traveling expenses. I don't know if they do or not, but if they had an "all hands" meeting in Chicago, would they fly their employees in from all over the world? If so, do the people who live 10 blocks away from the office get the same "travel voucher" as those who live 10 hours away?

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#38

Post by watwut »

rplnt wrote: post #31
watwut wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Janitors, receptionists nor cooks get such high salaries, altrough the place is the same.

If I were to look up salaries for those positions in bay area, they would be equal to those in rural Montana? If that's the argument you are making, I have no data to disprove it, so I would have to believe you, but it doesn't seem very likely.

That is not argument I am making. The difference in salary is in negotiation power, not in need, as shown by people who earn less while living at same location. Need is the same for janitor and programmers, however programmer have other employment opportunities and is more scarce resource.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#39

Post by rplnt »

jasonkester wrote: post #35
rplnt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's an equally qualified dev willing to take $1494/day less, employer would take that one. But if the only available people live in resorts, then the employer has no choice.

Indeed. The key is to never be that developer who leaves all that money on the table. The company you're negotiating against will be happy to take it.

The thing is, willing to live in a bungalow might be a competitive advantage, all other things being equal (and maybe even if they are not, sadly).

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#40

Post by sokoloff »

welly wrote: post #33
rplnt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You pay your developers, or any staff come to that, what they're worth to you. It's not that easy. What they are worth to you is your upper limit. What they are willing to work for is the lower bound. It's composed of many things, mostly supply and demand, but not an insignificant portion is living expenses. Most employers would gravitate towards the lower bound. And for a dev in India, it might be reasonable to pa…

I certainly realise that developers (or other employees) aren't, and likely will never be, paid the same despite where they live. I accept that is the reality, however is it reasonable ? I don't believe it is at all reasonable to pay developers in India less, if they're able to perform their duties in the same manner as a developer in a western nation. Developers in India are generally paid less because employers can…

I have dev teams in several locations in Europe, one in India, and one in the US. Speaking specifically of the India developers, they are fully qualified and, given equal conditions, I believe they could perform in the same manner as a western developer.

From the company's perspective, the conditions are not equal, try as we might (and do) to make them so. They are working on the other side of the clock from much of their peers and technical leadership. They are 18 hours of flight away when it comes time to visit on-site. They spend more time, on average, commuting to/from work. They face weather conditions that preclude reliable commuting several weeks per year.

They face disadvantages inherent to their location and related to the fact that their location isn't the HQ. It's not their fault, but to make the economics make sense for the company, they are paid well for the local market, but less than the Bay area market. If wages in India were Bay area wages, we wouldn't have started new dev teams in India.

The condition of one experienced dev moving away to a different location (I don't care whether higher or lower cost) is different from trying to build a de novo team in a different location. You take with you the experience and relationships you developed and that makes you different from your hypothetical identical twin who is applying to work remotely from wherever you are contemplating moving.

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