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Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

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Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#31
post #28

Anything that ranks Wellington[1] below Napoleon[2] needs some rethinking, IMHO. [1] https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/Arthur%20Well... [2] https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/Napoleon.html

And Wellington was a Field Marshal, not a General, in many of these battles.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#32
A major problem with ranking Mongol generals (and a lot of others) in this list is that there simply aren't historical accounts of most of their battles. Yes, the Mongols did send a large scouting force into Europe which wreaked havoc that entered recorded history in several places. That was a scouting force, not anything approaching what the Mongols would have considered one of their main armies. There are some accounts of travelers finding the aftermath of some of their battles in the near east, but much of their activity went on in places that did not keep such records. Just stitching together an empire in the steppes would have required a tremendous string of campaigns that not even Chinese historians would have any knowledge of.

Another major problem with this ranking is that, in many cases, the battlefield was not "level". Sometimes literally, but also technologically, socially, etc.. For example, Napoleon's Grande Armée was quite different from any other European force in its composition, supply, and leadership. It wasn't a small group of nobles carrying on knightly traditions, like most other European countries had. It was every freakin' Frenchman that could hold a rifle. For supply its soldiers relied heavily on foraging and raiding, which allowed them to move faster than opposing armies could. Command was highly distributed and Napoleon's commanders had a lot more information and leeway to act. When big battles happened, command chains had a way of breaking down, and that put traditional, strictly top-down command structures at a disadvantage. Napoleons army was bigger, faster, and smarter (if left to its own devices) than other European forces. It's arguable that Napoleon won so many battles, not because of his own tactical performance on the battlefield, but because he built a better army than those his peers built. Is that tactics? To put it another way, would Napoleon have fared as well against other French commanders had a schism occurred and he been faced with a civil war against half of his own army?

Julius Caesar had an even more overwhelming advantage over most of his opponents, thanks to the extreme disparity in organization between Roman legions and the Gauls or pretty much anyone else who wasn't Roman. He did spend some time fighting other Romans, but which type of opponent shot him up this list? Also, Caesar is probably one of the luckiest military commanders in history. If not for his luck, Caesar and his forces could have been annihilated in a dozen different battles and history would just have said "Well, that was a poor choice". How much does Caesar's luck inflate his position on this list?

Finally, one huge difference between baseball and historical battles is the historians. You can get a pretty unbiased view of any baseball game in the last few decades because you can actually watch a recording of it. Historical accounts of battles, on the other hand, are subject to all kinds of bias, exaggeration, etc.. Just the numbers of combatants involved become notoriously unreliable in all but very recent history, if they're even reliable then. For example, casualties inflicted by U.S. forces in the Vietnam war are often thought to be wildly inflated because they were often just assumed. e.g. U.S. forces take fire from somewhere in a jungle. They call in a napalm strike. Everything burns and the shooting stops. The U.S. commanders have incentives to pad their body counts, so they assume everybody shooting them (seemed like there were hundreds of them!) was wiped out. Accounts of battles just aren't trustworthy in a quantitative sense most of the time.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#33
post #28

Anything that ranks Wellington[1] below Napoleon[2] needs some rethinking, IMHO. [1] https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/Arthur%20Well... [2] https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/Napoleon.html

And Wellington was a Field Marshal, not a General, in many of these battles.

So was Napoleon.

I think we are using "general" as a functional title here, not a rank.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#34
post #19

Yes, lets rank those who were instrumental in killing others, give us all something to aspire to.

This isn't a ranking of number of people killed. It's a ranking of how many battles were won given their resources. You don't necessarily win a battle by killing as many people as possible.

I think anyone who is remotely reasonable would agree that sometimes war is necessary, such as in wars of national survival like for the UK in the Second World War.

If we've agreed that war is sometimes necessary, we better make sure that we have people who are extremely good at it, which this is recognising and analysing.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garbage in, garbage out. If your data set comes from scraping wikipedia, you're going to have these kinds of flaws and omissions. What's the alternative though, other than to hire an army of grad students? If flawed, at least it's interesting. I wish the author had gone into more detail about counterintuitive results (like Rommel), but part of the point of an exercise like this is to find instances where the model di…

Agreed. Trying to compare generals from ~10 different centuries without taking into account the specifics of each campaign, and context of those campaigns renders the results useless. I wouldn't trust this model to compare Montgomery to Patton during the Sicily invasion, let alone compare Caesar to Napoleon.

One thing I would be curious at generating from this data set, given the historical period spanning, would be correlation between expected battle outcome & actual battle outcome.

As someone who picked up a computational military modeling course in college, attempting to model ancient warfar is a vastly different task than modern battles.

My gut would be that modern warfare de-correlates more strongly from numeric advantage due to increased speed and lethality of available force types.

Also, for the author, if you wanted to be more accurate, start calculating actual expected outcomes from the forces. Lanchester's Laws are as good a place as any to start.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#36
post #15

How about ranking some ambassadors and heads-of-state who prevented or avoided war? Less thrilling, I know ...

On this note, Otto von Bismark might be one of the most accomplished heads of state of all time, what he managed was pretty extraordinary, but at the same time he was swimming with the historical tide, so it somewhat magnifies his accomplishments "great man" style.

I wonder how true this is of many generals as well.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#37
post #8

>No other general came close to Napoleon in total battles. While Napoleon commanded forces in 43 battles Subutai had over 60 battles. He also conquered largest areas and coordinated simultaneous operations over massive distances.

Not to demean him, but Subutai also had massive technical advantages with his mongol horse archers. He pretty much did everything else well though, not just tactics but strategies including psychological intimidation, adoption of opponents technologies, and just plain smart strategic thinking.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#38
post #11

A major problem with this analysis is not taking into account the number of battles fought. The article even states this: "Alexander the Great, despite winning all 9 of his battles, accumulated fewer WAR largely because of his shorter and less prolific career."

In baseball, WAA is a measurement of wins above the average player and is actually a far better measurement for Hall of Fame worthiness. Even better is a variant, peak WAA, is a mathematical measure of how far above average players a player reached.

WAA helps you compare between those with long careers that weren't great players and those who were truly great players who had short careers. The author needs a WAA for this comparison, not WAR.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#39
post #32

A major problem with ranking Mongol generals (and a lot of others) in this list is that there simply aren't historical accounts of most of their battles. Yes, the Mongols did send a large scouting force into Europe which wreaked havoc that entered recorded history in several places. That was a scouting force, not anything approaching what the Mongols would have considered one of their main armies. There are some acco…

Almost every battle Julius Caesar ever fought was win or die. He was outnumbered by the Gauls in every battle, and the Gauls started adopting Roman organizational tactics after a while. And he didn't just fight a few battles with Romans, more like dozens.

At some point it's not just luck. He was a brilliant tactician and did innovative new things almost every battle.

The one battle Caesar did lose was an example of Caesars luck. Caesar only survived because Pompey (another great general) neglected (or was unable to) finish off Caesar's forces in the rout. Pompey still trapped Caesar's forces, who were sure to starve and dwindle if Pompey just waited them out. But his rich backers goaded Pompey into fighting Caesar again, a seemingly easy battle given his huge advantages in men, especially cavalry. But do or die Caesar pulled out another victory through innovative tactics, and that victory made him the ruler of Rome.

Re: Ranking Some Generals in the History of Warfare

#40
post #23
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, we'll put "some" above.

Has HN considered color coding title changes, or even the portions of the title changed in smaller or subtle changes like here?

Can't say we have. What would be the benefit?
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