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Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

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Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#31

Post by jcranmer »

jwdunne wrote: post #4

Oh man, I've sunk countless hours into CK2. Such a rich game and I highly recommend it. This post pretty much lays out a facet of what I love and alludes to the bigger picture: start with a historical setting and run with it, often diverging. One game I became the king of Ireland and then somehow the king of Britanny. I then only had female child heirs. They got overthrown and ended up cast out of Ireland. I was intr…

In my most recent playthrough, I've found that some of the mechanics don't make a lot of sense from an ontological perspective:

"Friends, countrymen. The rampaging horsemen of Kirghiz have long plundered the world and burned down cities and used the bones of our fellow Christians to fertilize their fields. We have heard from our friends in Gotland that Kirghiz intends to do the same to their houses, and we shall prevent this. Sound the alarms, muster the levies!" Two months later: "Er, never mind, Gotland surrenders." And a month later, "Friends, countrymen…"

Beyond that, it can be fun to watch just how screwed up the game can get sometimes. I had one playthrough where the Kingdom of Andalusia was located in Hungary, the Kingdom of Africa in Italy and the Kingdom of Italy in Africa.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#33

Post by stryan »

jwdunne wrote: post #22
DanAndersen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paradox games like CK2 are great because they have enough complexity in them to create decent variety from game to game, so it's your own personal story that's unfolding. CK2 in particular, because of the human drama element, is very good at this. The point about historical divergence is spot-on; a lot of the fun is in having some familiarity with the way things actually turned out, and comparing it with whatever end…

I've been meaning to play HOI for a while. I was put off by the short time frame it's set in - feels like I need to understand how they handle that compared to multi-hundred year timeframes in EU4/CK2. Mind Vicky is roughly 100 years but still great replay value but still 100 years is longer than a decade or two? The mod might be the push I need to check it out :) By "link up", I didn't mean the same game. I meant so…

They do have an official save converter[1]. Not sure if it works with the latest versions of CKII and EU4 but it's definitely worked in the past.

Hell, you used to be able to do the "Grand Campaign" where you play CKII->EU4->Vicky->HOI to cover about a millennium of history. Once again though, not sure if the save file converters have been updated enough to do that now.

[1]:https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Europa_Universalis_4_Save_Conve...

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#34

Post by baud147258 »

_jgdh wrote: post #19
Banthum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 seconds of Googling reveals: >On July 4, 1187, the Muslim forces of Saladin (Salah al-Din) decisively defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin in Palestine, capturing Guy, king of Jerusalem; Reginald of Châtillon, Saladin’s enemy whom he personally killed; over two hundred Knights Hospitaller and Templar Knightly Orders whom he ordered to be killed; and many crusaders whom he ransomed. The remaining…

I'm glad you did your 5 seconds of googling - but the distinction I was drawing was the difference in treatment meted out to combatants and non-combatants. Saladin sold soldiers into slavery. He spared civilians. The Crusaders made no such distinction. Yes, slavery sucked but between mass murder and selling into slavery, the latter was the lesser of the two evils in the 12th century. The alternative - allowing enemy…

Archbishop William of Tyre was the neighbor of Saladin, so it might have been just praise to avoid being next to be sold in slavery?

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#35

Post by _jgdh »

baud147258 wrote: post #34
_jgdh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you did your 5 seconds of googling - but the distinction I was drawing was the difference in treatment meted out to combatants and non-combatants. Saladin sold soldiers into slavery. He spared civilians. The Crusaders made no such distinction. Yes, slavery sucked but between mass murder and selling into slavery, the latter was the lesser of the two evils in the 12th century. The alternative - allowing enemy…

Archbishop William of Tyre was the neighbor of Saladin, so it might have been just praise to avoid being next to be sold in slavery?

No. William grew up at a time when the Kingdom of Jerusalem was strong and was Archbishop between 1127-1135. At no point was William ever in danger from Saladin. Saladin actually captured very little territory from the Crusader states until 1187, when a decisive battle was fought and he captured most of the Levant. William would have had reason to fear him then, but he had passed away the previous year.

Also, Saladin did not sell anyone into slavery as long as they paid a ransom - a measly 10 dinars. Anyone who paid was allowed to leave Jerusalem with all of their possessions. When the Patriarch of Jerusalem tried to leave the city weighed down with treasures, Saladin was advised to keep most of it but he took nothing except the 10 dinars and let the Patriarch leave with the rest of his wealth. Saladin did not want to break the promise he had made - that anyone who paid the ransom was free.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#36

Post by badminton1 »

_jgdh wrote: post #16
badminton1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deus Vult ("god wills it") is also the expression in Latin used during the actual crusades, the historical event that predates the game by over 900 years. The name of the game is based on that expression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_vult Some rather informal historical explanation can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIs5B2U7US0

A quick note on exactly what God willed, according to the Crusaders. A scene from the Siege of Antioch in 1098 > The calm night air was shattered as the Franks screamed out their battle cry "God wills it! God wills it!" With resistance crumbling, the Crusaders poured into Antioch. Amid the gloom of the approaching dawn the chaotic slaughter began. One Latin contemporary noted that 'they were sparing no Muslim on the…

You are talking of a time where theocracy was the rule of the land and literacy rate was below 1%. The scientific method wasn't even invented yet and whatever proto-science that existed would not take you very far.

During that time, insulting god was the worst possible thing someone can do, and following another god was a way of doing that.

The prize for participating in the crusades was a papal bull, which is document representing a guaranteed entry to heaven by cancelling all your sins. So if you went full ape and killed 1000 people you technically still went to heaven.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#37

Post by j_s »

payamb wrote: post #32

Anyone knows a good alternative to Victoria 2 ? I had so much fun in Victoria II but its unplayable now and always crashes.

Might find some help getting things working on the Steam discussion forum for the game:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/42960/discussions/

It appears to be still for sale ($20), without overwhelming reports of technical issues:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/42960/Victoria_II/

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#38

Post by _jgdh »

badminton1 wrote: post #36
_jgdh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick note on exactly what God willed, according to the Crusaders. A scene from the Siege of Antioch in 1098 > The calm night air was shattered as the Franks screamed out their battle cry "God wills it! God wills it!" With resistance crumbling, the Crusaders poured into Antioch. Amid the gloom of the approaching dawn the chaotic slaughter began. One Latin contemporary noted that 'they were sparing no Muslim on the…

You are talking of a time where theocracy was the rule of the land and literacy rate was below 1%. The scientific method wasn't even invented yet and whatever proto-science that existed would not take you very far. During that time, insulting god was the worst possible thing someone can do, and following another god was a way of doing that. The prize for participating in the crusades was a papal bull, which is docume…

Thanks for the explanation, but the book I mentioned explains that in detail, over several hundred pages. I was trying to make 2 points

- By the standards of their time, the Crusaders were particularly barbaric. I'm not judging them by 21st century standards, I'm comparing them to their contemporaries in the 12th century, such as Saladin.

- 'Deus Vult' was their battle cry when they engaged in this barbaric slaughter in their successful bid to recapture the Holy Land. It is also used by members of the far right today. They do so because they advocate a similar stance towards Muslims.

Sadly, this has upset fans of Crusader Kings in this thread. I regret it, but I liken it to the Nazis' appropriation of the swastika, a Hindu religious symbol. It sucks that the far right has appropriated what's yours, but you just gotta accept it and move on.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#39

Post by erikb »

jwdunne wrote: post #22
DanAndersen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paradox games like CK2 are great because they have enough complexity in them to create decent variety from game to game, so it's your own personal story that's unfolding. CK2 in particular, because of the human drama element, is very good at this. The point about historical divergence is spot-on; a lot of the fun is in having some familiarity with the way things actually turned out, and comparing it with whatever end…

I've been meaning to play HOI for a while. I was put off by the short time frame it's set in - feels like I need to understand how they handle that compared to multi-hundred year timeframes in EU4/CK2. Mind Vicky is roughly 100 years but still great replay value but still 100 years is longer than a decade or two? The mod might be the push I need to check it out :) By "link up", I didn't mean the same game. I meant so…

with HOI you play in hours though, not in days. The number of rounds might not be so different I believe.

Re: Deus Vult – Social Networks in Crusader Kings 2

#40

Post by badminton1 »

_jgdh wrote: post #38
badminton1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking of a time where theocracy was the rule of the land and literacy rate was below 1%. The scientific method wasn't even invented yet and whatever proto-science that existed would not take you very far. During that time, insulting god was the worst possible thing someone can do, and following another god was a way of doing that. The prize for participating in the crusades was a papal bull, which is docume…

Thanks for the explanation, but the book I mentioned explains that in detail, over several hundred pages. I was trying to make 2 points - By the standards of their time, the Crusaders were particularly barbaric. I'm not judging them by 21st century standards, I'm comparing them to their contemporaries in the 12th century, such as Saladin. - 'Deus Vult' was their battle cry when they engaged in this barbaric slaughter…

Well, such folks also like post imagery related to the film "Kingdom of Heaven".

The entire point of that film is to portray the crusades as pointless, but those guys don't really get it.

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