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Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

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Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#31

Post by graeme »

NiklasMort wrote: post #24
paloaltokid wrote: post #6

What a sad story. If you’re out there and you’re struggling, please know that help does exist. Professional counseling and therapy really can make a difference, you do have to find someone you can connect with. I wish Bill’s friends the best in dealing with losing him.

That is not true. Maybe if you have money, and a lot of it. Even then therapy is no ultimate solution, most likely they'll just recommend you to take drugs that numb you down. The world is a horrible place, humans are horrible beings, life mostly sucks for the big majority of people. If suicide was not forbidden by religion or society I am pretty sure lot of people would op out and that for good reasons.

Money isn't required. Just a friend or family member who's a good listener, and has some life wisdom. At least for the first steps of simply talking about a difficult issue.

You probably can't keep them secret, which was Zeller's reason for not discussing his story. But on the other hand, the talking helps.

It can be hard to find the right person sometimes, but they exist.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#32

Post by Deestan »

averagewall wrote: post #18
cgmg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... did you read Bill's letter in its entirety? > I'd also like to address my family, if you can call them that. I despise everything they stand for and I truly hate them, in a non-emotional, dispassionate and what I believe is a healthy way. The world will be a better place when they're dead—one with less hatred and intolerance.

The example he chose to show how bad they were makes them look fairly reasonable. So perhaps his judgment was clouded. That example was that Muslims who follow the koran are terrorists. The koran does actually advise people to kill quite a lot of other people, so following it strictly would make you at least a murderer, if not a terrorist.

So does their own bible.

Glossing over this fact in order to safely hate other people is what makes them shit people.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#33

Post by zero_iq »

peterburkimsher wrote: post #17
wyclif wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think he didn't read the letter in its entirety? Just because Zeller hated his parents doesn't mean his description of them is accurate. Don't forget, it's a suicide note. People use them to vent their grievances, real and perceived. It's very sad that he felt he had to take his own life. I wish he had reached out and gotten professional help for his depression.

Did you read the letter in its entirety? "You may wonder why I didn't just talk to a professional about this. I've seen a number of doctors since I was a teenager to talk about other issues and I'm positive that another doctor would not have helped. I was never given one piece of actionable advice, ever."

But that doesn't contradict your parent poster's wish in any way. Read your quote again carefully. He says he did NOT seek professional help about this. (Only about other issues, and seems he was never given good advice).

He didn't seek professional advice about his central life-altering pain because he thought it would be as poor as the help he'd had for other things (by what sound like crappy doctors). He was probably wrong about that.

People under enough emotional strain and pain sufficient to drive them to suicide are rarely thinking clearly when considering how to deal with that pain alone, no matter how intelligent and logical and reasonable they might otherwise be. Such a huge mental burden clouds your judgement. It's hard to think clearly about how to climb out of the swamp when you feel yourself drowning in it.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#34

Post by Simon_says »

paloaltokid wrote: post #27
NiklasMort wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true. Maybe if you have money, and a lot of it. Even then therapy is no ultimate solution, most likely they'll just recommend you to take drugs that numb you down. The world is a horrible place, humans are horrible beings, life mostly sucks for the big majority of people. If suicide was not forbidden by religion or society I am pretty sure lot of people would op out and that for good reasons.

I’m sorry to hear that that is your view of life. From my own experience of having money, I can say with some amount of certainty that it has no bearing on your happiness. But it is possible to be happy, that much I know. The secret is that it takes work and an open-minded attitude. In my own experience, meditation is the only thing I’ve found that really works. Maybe you can give it a try and see if it works for you…

That doesn't match my experience. I've been rich, and I've been poor, and trust me, rich is better. It's not like being rich solves all problems, not even close, but there's a class of problems that just go away if you can throw a few dollars at them, and I'm not even talking about particularly large amounts of money. And additionally there's a constant low-grade stress from living without a safety net that goes away once you have a solid emergency fund, insurance, healthcare, personal safety, etc..

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#35

Post by acjohnson55 »

tinokid wrote: post #7

I likewise knew Bill. I met his parents once too, and saw his kindness and good nature reflected in them as well. This is a tragedy no one should have to bear. We miss him.

I never met Bill's parents. But I do know that perfectly pleasant people can fail catastrophically when confronted with a deep conflict of interests. It happens all the time. When the chips are down, most people will choose whatever they think preserves the status quo with the greatest likelihood.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#36

Post by toyg »

One thing I’ll never understand is people taking drastic action like this but then not naming their abusers. It’s not the first time I see it happening, and I just cannot comprehend it. It is irresponsible towards the community at large, towards other children, and the justification (the risk of not being taken seriously) is incredibly flimsy when you are willing to witness with your own life. Then again, somebody taking his/her own life is not likely to be following a completely rational train of thoughts.

I do understand the grievance against his parents. My uncle killed himself at 26, as a way of having the last word against his parents - a hard-working couple who raised 5 boys; they were only guilty of not fully understanding that the age difference between parents and child, with the last two kids, was probably too high from a cultural perspective. I wish there was a way for kids to simply opt out of their family when they decide it’s just not working out. As society we allow that only in extreme cases, but maybe we could solve a lot of problems by making it easier for everyone.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#37

Post by NiklasMort »

paloaltokid wrote: post #27
NiklasMort wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true. Maybe if you have money, and a lot of it. Even then therapy is no ultimate solution, most likely they'll just recommend you to take drugs that numb you down. The world is a horrible place, humans are horrible beings, life mostly sucks for the big majority of people. If suicide was not forbidden by religion or society I am pretty sure lot of people would op out and that for good reasons.

I’m sorry to hear that that is your view of life. From my own experience of having money, I can say with some amount of certainty that it has no bearing on your happiness. But it is possible to be happy, that much I know. The secret is that it takes work and an open-minded attitude. In my own experience, meditation is the only thing I’ve found that really works. Maybe you can give it a try and see if it works for you…

My main point was that professional therapy and counseling is very expensive, even in social countries like Western Europe. Free resources are all exhausted and often bad, private therapy is 100$/h. Now even if you earn decent that's a lot of cash but people with issues usually barely have enough to pay rent and food. And as to meditation or "talking helps": NOTHING changes reality. I can do all positive thinking I want in the end I am still surrounded by endless suffering and misery.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#38

Post by hyperpallium »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #16

There are a lot of logical loops here that don’t make sense. “I can’t”, “I will always”, “for obvious reasons...” etc. They sound familiar to me. I’ve been stuck in loops of anger/pain where I can’t let go of an axiom, even though I know it’s probably not representative of reality, because I am obsessed about the possibility of finding another axiom under that one.... one that is both represented in reality AND addre…

Cognitive therapy takes this approach. Distorted thoughts cause distorted feelings, in that an emotional reaction to an event/situation is dependent on a perception/interpretation of it. i.e. a cognition. Faulty cognition -> faulty emotion.

...therefore, taking such feelings as "true" (as an assessment of reality) is mistaken.

I bring this up is because cognitive therapy can be practiced from books, without having to share with another, if that is an obstacle.

Of course, having a true friend is an even better and easier way. And a funny thing is that by its nature, it's easier to spot faulty cognition in someone else (from the outside) than in yourself (from the inside). So, people can help each other.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#39

Post by aedron »

averagewall wrote: post #18
cgmg wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... did you read Bill's letter in its entirety? > I'd also like to address my family, if you can call them that. I despise everything they stand for and I truly hate them, in a non-emotional, dispassionate and what I believe is a healthy way. The world will be a better place when they're dead—one with less hatred and intolerance.

The example he chose to show how bad they were makes them look fairly reasonable. So perhaps his judgment was clouded. That example was that Muslims who follow the koran are terrorists. The koran does actually advise people to kill quite a lot of other people, so following it strictly would make you at least a murderer, if not a terrorist.

I'm a Muslim and you got it wrong.

Re: Last Words of Programmer Bill Zeller (2011)

#40

Post by dhubris »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #16

There are a lot of logical loops here that don’t make sense. “I can’t”, “I will always”, “for obvious reasons...” etc. They sound familiar to me. I’ve been stuck in loops of anger/pain where I can’t let go of an axiom, even though I know it’s probably not representative of reality, because I am obsessed about the possibility of finding another axiom under that one.... one that is both represented in reality AND addre…

> He keeps saying over and over how he could never tell anyone because it would get out. But that’s his false axiom. Talking would’ve been the only way to find release.

There are huge elements of shame at work here. No, it is not logical to feel shame over being abused as a child. Nonetheless, it becomes one of your most closely guarded secrets because you are ashamed.

It can take years to get to a point of being able to talk about it and be able to process it, assuming you can find the safe space to do so.

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