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Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

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Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#31

Post by inferno0069 »

tptacek wrote: post #18
jonhohle wrote: post #11

I am not a constitutional scholar, but this seems like a violation of the Fourth Amendment. I would likely put random bag searches, and pat-down searches in that category as well. As an American citizen, without reasonable suspicion of criminal intent, why are searches of this type legal? Has this been challenged in the Supreme Court?

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1265662.html We have held that airport screening searches, like the one at issue here, are constitutionally reasonable administrative searches because they are “conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme in furtherance of an administrative purpose, namely, to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft, and thereby to prevent hijackings.” United States…

It seems worth pointing out that you can affect the safety of as many or more people by walking into a skyscraper, stadium, festival, &c., or by walking near train tracks when a train or two is due to come by, a major bridge during rush hour, &c. The searches may be easiest to do for air travel, but the same thing could be done nearly as easily for any tall building.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#32

Post by ghshephard »

jonhohle wrote: post #23
tptacek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These millimeter wave devices aren't being installed in a secret plot to eliminate everyone's civil rights. They're being installed because regulators sincerely believe that they represent a reasonable compromise between privacy (which is actually not one of your ironclad civil liberties) and safety. Airport security is probably a bad joke. But acting and talking as if that's a foregone conclusion --- or worse, that…

> These millimeter wave devices aren't being installed in a secret plot to eliminate everyone's civil rights. There likely is no plot to eliminate civil rights, however, devices like these erode privacy, increase distrust in government, and, worse, increase the time and comfort it takes to get from point A to point B. From the late 80s to today we've gone from a time when only metal detectors were required to get bac…

Re: Children - at least the TSA has some clue about this: "...arrangements may be made for non-travelers to accompany children. Contact your airline to make arrangements."

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#33

Post by MartinCron »

tptacek wrote: post #2

I'm shocked, shocked! that electronic strip searches might be misused by the crack team of professionals at the TSA. This is very simple: (a) call these things what they are: electronic strip searches. (b) refuse to submit to them at the airport. I just did this on a flight from Kansas City. Guess what? Not a big deal. You'll get the same pat-down search you get when you're "randomly selected for additional screening…

To those who suggest that the pat-down searches are as intrusive or more intrusive than the electronic strip searches: no

I haven't been through an electronic strip search, so I can't speak to that. I can speak to the last time I had a pat-down at the airport: I found it pretty invasive. I've never thought of myself as a big "personal space" guy, but here is this TSA agent, grabbing aggressively at all of my pockets, having me empty them out for him, etc. All the while, I'm angry, but I know that I can't complain or give him a hard time because he's in a position of power to give me a much harder time, make me miss my flight, whatever. It's so frustrating when you know it's just security theatre, and doesn't do anything besides make people feel safer.

When I asked "must we do this?" he gave me the option of doing it in private (no thank you) and told me that I consented to this by entering the checkpoint. It's like click-wrap licensing, only with your feet.

There is no third option for people who don't want their nude photos persisted who also don't like being groped by strangers.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#35

Post by sprout »

tptacek wrote: post #13
scott_s wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To those who suggest that the pat-down searches are as intrusive or more intrusive than the electronic strip searches: no. There's no objective answer to this. I believe you and I have discussed this before. Personally, the scans don't bother me at all. Being patted down doesn't bother me too much, but it does bother me at least some. So, for me, I'd rather walk through a scanner unobstructed than be patted down.

Would it bother you to find a name-attributed copy of your body scan in a zip file on Rapidshare? Why do you assume that won't happen? I assume the opposite.

And? Why would anyone other than an art student want a body scan of every person going through Chicago on a busy day? What is the horror that will befall me if someone sees me naked?

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#36

Post by pvg »

tptacek wrote: post #25
pvg wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get the same pat-down search you get when you're "randomly selected for additional screening", which is not a big deal. Just out of curiosity, did they actually turn you into 'selectee' (mark your boarding pass, etc) or was it just the extra search at the security checkpoint?

I've been selectee'd before, and the search I got for "opting out" (that's what they said, "opt out! we've got an opt out!") was identical. They didn't mark my boarding pass or anything, though. In case you're worried that you'll get re-harassed at the gate... no.

An opt out, I love these guys' verbiage. As a master of personal organization, I've flown without id a few times and yes, I was mostly wondering about the chance of getting an extra search at the gate. Which, really, isn't that big of a deal either and certainly not compared to someone taking digital naked pictures of you.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#37

Post by pmjordan »

tptacek wrote: post #28
bitwize wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (which is actually not one of your ironclad civil liberties) Not in the US, anyway. Thankfully, there's Europe, which has progressed considerably further than the U.S. in terms of actually protecting people's rights.

Having had the experience of observing the frontiers of my civil rights while being searched on the train from Zurich to Rome, I find this notion that things are better in Europe amusing. From what I can tell, the situation Americans find themselves in at the TSA checkpoints is identical to the situation all Europeans find themselves in everywhere . You realize that (contrary to popular opinion) Americans don't even…

Flying between Schengen countries, 99% of the time I have my bag X-Rayed and my ID checked by airline staff on check-in, and that's it. At no point do I even have contact with a government official.

Land border crossings are even more of a non-event, you have to pay attention or you might miss them. In some countries you can indeed be IDd on the spot though. Not that it's ever happened to me (except by traffic police checking my license).

Entering or leaving the Schengen area is a slightly different story - you pass through emigration/immigration, plus some countries like the UK are slightly more draconian about air travel "security" and have body scanners. I assume your trip was before Switzerland's entry to the Schengen zone in December 2008?

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#38

Post by patio11 »

tptacek wrote: post #7
5teev wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Object while you can, before it's mandatory to surrender all civil rights in order to fly.

These millimeter wave devices aren't being installed in a secret plot to eliminate everyone's civil rights. They're being installed because regulators sincerely believe that they represent a reasonable compromise between privacy (which is actually not one of your ironclad civil liberties) and safety. Airport security is probably a bad joke. But acting and talking as if that's a foregone conclusion --- or worse, that…

Thomas speaks much sense here. Relatedly, that is exactly the attitude you should take with cops who try to ask you questions or seize your papers or effects. "I respectfully decline. If you are not arresting me, I am leaving; if you do not have a search warrant, leave my property expeditiously. Have a nice day."

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#39

Post by evgen »

runjake wrote: post #27

Every time the TSA rambles on about how giving up this little bit of freedom saves your life from terrorism, I wonder why a journalist doesn't hit them up for comment on the (perhaps apocryphal) quote "Those who would give up their liberty for security deserve neither".

Perhaps you should learn the quote first: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Now you just need to prove that the liberties being abrogated are essential and that the security being provided is temporary.

Re: Feds admit storing checkpoint body scan images

#40

Post by tptacek »

pmjordan wrote: post #37
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having had the experience of observing the frontiers of my civil rights while being searched on the train from Zurich to Rome, I find this notion that things are better in Europe amusing. From what I can tell, the situation Americans find themselves in at the TSA checkpoints is identical to the situation all Europeans find themselves in everywhere . You realize that (contrary to popular opinion) Americans don't even…

Flying between Schengen countries, 99% of the time I have my bag X-Rayed and my ID checked by airline staff on check-in, and that's it. At no point do I even have contact with a government official. Land border crossings are even more of a non-event, you have to pay attention or you might miss them. In some countries you can indeed be IDd on the spot though. Not that it's ever happened to me (except by traffic police…

It was prior to that, but it wasn't at a border crossing. It was a drug search inside the borders of Switzerland.
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