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Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#31

Post by craftyguy »

colechristensen wrote: post #30
ben_w wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the days of Mac OS classic, there was a tool called ResEdit. You could use it to explore and modify apps. Or the core OS. While it was running. It warned you this was a bad idea, but I did it anyway. It took ten years before I saw a computer lock up that hard again. That’s how I see humans DIY hacking their own genome. If you’re lucky you’ll get what you were after. If not, you now have sexuality transmissibl…

It doesn't really work like that though. The genes that cause much of your form dictate growth processes between embryo and adulthood. If you could change them everywhere you wouldn't change at all. But it's also not how CRISPR/CAS9 works either. Gene therapies usually involve a process of extracting stem cells, modifying a small number of them in vitro, growing them, and then either using them to grow tissues out of…

> It's not an injection you take that goes out and edits every cell and you magically change shape

I don't think that's what they were referring to. It seems that the concern is you make an edit, it is unsuccessful in implementing whatever you wanted but also breaks something critical (e.g. proper skull formation), and that gene is passed to your children who then suffer the consequences. That seems feasible to me, but I'm not a bio expert, don't play one on TV, and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn in years.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#32

Post by ben_w »

craftyguy wrote: post #31
colechristensen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really work like that though. The genes that cause much of your form dictate growth processes between embryo and adulthood. If you could change them everywhere you wouldn't change at all. But it's also not how CRISPR/CAS9 works either. Gene therapies usually involve a process of extracting stem cells, modifying a small number of them in vitro, growing them, and then either using them to grow tissues out of…

> It's not an injection you take that goes out and edits every cell and you magically change shape I don't think that's what they were referring to. It seems that the concern is you make an edit, it is unsuccessful in implementing whatever you wanted but also breaks something critical (e.g. proper skull formation), and that gene is passed to your children who then suffer the consequences. That seems feasible to me, b…

Your suggestion is much more plausible than mine, especially as it won’t be noticed for at least 9 months after the modification. I was mainly inventing a nicely dramatic failure mode that seemed plausible on the assumption humans are just a bunch of self-replicating chemicals, so you could inject genes that say “send self-destruction signals to nearby cells that have not been modified like me, then grow into the gap they leave in [shape of new structure]”, much like the sexually transmitted genital cancer dogs can get that was in the news a while ago.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#33

Post by jopsen »

craftyguy wrote: post #31
colechristensen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really work like that though. The genes that cause much of your form dictate growth processes between embryo and adulthood. If you could change them everywhere you wouldn't change at all. But it's also not how CRISPR/CAS9 works either. Gene therapies usually involve a process of extracting stem cells, modifying a small number of them in vitro, growing them, and then either using them to grow tissues out of…

> It's not an injection you take that goes out and edits every cell and you magically change shape I don't think that's what they were referring to. It seems that the concern is you make an edit, it is unsuccessful in implementing whatever you wanted but also breaks something critical (e.g. proper skull formation), and that gene is passed to your children who then suffer the consequences. That seems feasible to me, b…

I guess you can backup your genes by putting seed/eggs on ice :)

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#34

Post by maratd »

ben_w wrote: post #14
kanzure wrote: post #11

Here's a transcript of a recent talk given by Josiah Zayner: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/diy-human-gene-therapy-wit... [20:40] “If you look at Step 3 - which is, uh, you know, I like steps and lists, they are awesome - uhm, there are actually websites out there that have this infrastructure completely built. You can go in, type in the name of a gene. Not even the name, you could type in the name you think a gen…

Back in the days of Mac OS classic, there was a tool called ResEdit. You could use it to explore and modify apps. Or the core OS. While it was running. It warned you this was a bad idea, but I did it anyway. It took ten years before I saw a computer lock up that hard again. That’s how I see humans DIY hacking their own genome. If you’re lucky you’ll get what you were after. If not, you now have sexuality transmissibl…

> If you’re lucky you’ll get what you were after.

No, if you're lucky, nothing happens. The majority of the other alternatives are just death.

Just imagine a complex codebase and then you start changing parts of it randomly. What are you going to get? Either nothing or more likely, some sort of a crash which in biology means death.

What's the probability that you'll get a feature or fix a bug doing that? Almost 0.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#36

Post by colechristensen »

craftyguy wrote: post #31
colechristensen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really work like that though. The genes that cause much of your form dictate growth processes between embryo and adulthood. If you could change them everywhere you wouldn't change at all. But it's also not how CRISPR/CAS9 works either. Gene therapies usually involve a process of extracting stem cells, modifying a small number of them in vitro, growing them, and then either using them to grow tissues out of…

> It's not an injection you take that goes out and edits every cell and you magically change shape I don't think that's what they were referring to. It seems that the concern is you make an edit, it is unsuccessful in implementing whatever you wanted but also breaks something critical (e.g. proper skull formation), and that gene is passed to your children who then suffer the consequences. That seems feasible to me, b…

Gene therapies are targeted to specific tissues/organs. The only way you pass on the genes is by using CRISPR/CAS9 to modify an embryo or gamete in IVF.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#37

Post by patcheudor »

I saw John Sotos, Chief Medical Officer of Intel talk at DEF CON 25 about bio-hacking. This guy is at the top of his field and whip-smart. He's without a doubt an expert in this field and it was one of the most terrifying talks I've ever attended at DEF CON. Bio-hacking has the potential of being one of the gravest threats to humanity in far more ways than just killing people. This is a MUST WATCH:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKQDSgBHPfY

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#38

Post by fellellor »

Gatsky wrote: post #16
ilamont wrote: post #4

Finally, what about the nightmare scenario: Is CRISPR so easy to use that we need to worry about biohackers—either accidentally or intentionally—creating dangerous pathogens? Carroll and others think that the danger of putting CRISPR in the hands of the average person is relatively low. “People have imagined scenarios where scientists could use CRISPR to generate a virulent pathogen, ” he says. “How big is the risk?…

As other people have said, it has been possible to make bioweapons for a long time, but engineered bioterrorism hasn't happened. There are a few reasons I think. Firstly, there is a cultural disconnect between fundamentalism and science heavy weapons development. In the same way that ISIS is not building gigawatt lasers or rail guns, the groups capable of terrorism don't prioritise research. They are often very atavi…

I have a feeling that suicide is easier when the costs are low. Once a terror organization develops respectable level of technical capability, like north Korea, they would tend to evolve into a criminal organization. I don't know if that is much better since a rational criminal organization may pose a much bigger threat than a fanatical group of terrorists.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#39

Post by bayesian_horse »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #18
bayesian_horse wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason bioterrorism isn't a thing, even though terrorism-minded people could get access to dangerous pathogens like Y. pestis or EBV if they wanted to. At least in my opinion, it's just too damn hard for them to merit the effort, even compared to a sophisticated bomb. Trying to engineer (and test) a strain, "weaponize" it, takes a lot of space, time and resources. And then the delivery is also very difficul…

The hard part is protecting your side against the effects. If you're not worried about protecting a population, pathogen production and delivery becomes rather simpler.

Protecting anyone hasn't historically been a concern for terrorists at all. Islamic terrorists, in particular, hit entirely Muslim targets all the time.

And no, even then, production and delivery isn't easy. There are no pathogens which are both highly infectious and highly pathogenic, both because those traits are mutually inhibiting, and such a pathogen would already have run its course in the world. Any attempt to increase infectiousness and pathogenic potential, however, would require a very large foot print, virtually guaranteeing discovery by law enforcement.

Re: Mail-Order CRISPR Kits Allow Anyone to Hack DNA

#40

Post by Gatsky »

cirgue wrote: post #22
Gatsky wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other people have said, it has been possible to make bioweapons for a long time, but engineered bioterrorism hasn't happened. There are a few reasons I think. Firstly, there is a cultural disconnect between fundamentalism and science heavy weapons development. In the same way that ISIS is not building gigawatt lasers or rail guns, the groups capable of terrorism don't prioritise research. They are often very atavi…

Aum Shinrikyo actually had a bio-weapons program that failed, seemingly due to a lack of technical expertise: http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/revisiting-aum-shinriky...

That was a fascinating and disconcerting read. The part where a cult member falls into the fermentation tank supposedly filled with botulinum toxin and comes out unscathed I guess illustrates the point I was trying to make.
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