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Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

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Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#31

Post by alextgordon »

hugh3 wrote: post #22
milesf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman is like a goalpost. He's as far over to one side as you can be. We need people like him since we all tend to measure our views and beliefs in reference to others. I just wouldn't want to hang out with the guy. I say "Linux" and buy proprietary software. I'm sure he wouldn't want to hang with me either, but I do respect him.

Who is the other goalpost? Are they equally necessary?

Organisations like the Business Software Alliance (http://www.bsa.org/) are the closest I can think of to a pro-proprietary advocacy group.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#32

Post by winthrowe »

milesf wrote: post #6

I lost patience with RMS years ago. The problem with Free Software is a marketing problem. If you have to keep explaining things over and over again, saying "Free as in Freedom", or trying to get GNU/Linux to take hold instead of just Linux, you're doing it wrong. Richard is a tremendous hacker, but he's a lousy salesman. I'm not a big fan of salespeople in general, but guys like DHH have proved that it's not enough…

As there are starting to be more and more Linux systems that aren't GNU anymore (think of all the Android tablets, to start), I can see the GNU/Linux distinction becoming more important. Because, when you get down to it, I acutally do want a GNU system. I might very well install Debian GNU/kFreeBSD one of these days, but I want the GNU.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#33

Post by benofsky »

ohyes wrote: post #18
benofsky wrote: post #5

In response to software which requires a lot of development time to create, specifically tax software or games, RMS says: > The reason I don't use nonfree software is that it would take away my freedom. I don't want to let that happen. So I don't consider installing nonfree program, even as an possible option. I treat them as poison. I hope that you will too. This man lives in an imaginary world where no one has to m…

I think it is actually the opposite of that. > You have a choice between deserving a reward and not getting a material reward, and getting one but not deserving it. I think that RMS sees our current society as intrinsically flawed with regard to how it is that we reward people for their good and hard work (and the behavior patterns associated with that work). It is not that he lives in a world where no one has to mak…

The fact of the matter though is that it is not financially viable in any way (or ever will be) for all software to be "free" in the sense of RMS "free".

How could a company like Google, built fundamentally on trade secrets, ever be developed. No one would invest the kind of money that was required to build Google into what it is today if Microsoft could go to Github and download "google-search".

It is pie in the sky stuff, unfortunately.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#34

Post by avar »

chc wrote: post #27
avar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market changed overnight so that nobody wanted to buy non-free cars, which for the sake of argument we'll define here as cars where the full schematics are under a free license like the GPL. Nothing would really change. The main effort of making a car is still making the car . Just because you can download recipes or a CAD drawing of a car chefs or car makers aren't going to go out of business. They provide a…

Source code is not equivalent to a schematic. Source code is equivalent to schematics, raw materials, free labor and the key to a factory. All you need to do is run it through a compiler and you've got an operational program.

Indeed, there aren't any manufacturing costs. So under a free software model you'd have to make money by continuing to make improved versions under contract, or offering support, hosting or other things like that.

A lot of people are doing this sort of thing already, so you can make a living off it.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#35

Post by whyenot »

benofsky wrote: post #5

In response to software which requires a lot of development time to create, specifically tax software or games, RMS says: > The reason I don't use nonfree software is that it would take away my freedom. I don't want to let that happen. So I don't consider installing nonfree program, even as an possible option. I treat them as poison. I hope that you will too. This man lives in an imaginary world where no one has to m…

You selected a single sentence out of a multi-paragraph response. Why not look at the whole thing, which is a lot more nuanced (for Stallman) and kind of interesting?

Tax software can and should be released by the state under a free license. But when the state fails to do its duty, the community do the job.

In Brazil, FSF Latin America releases free software for filing tax returns, and this year managed to release the free program before the state released its nonfree program. So don't say it's impossible.

I don't like to talk about "consumption" of these programs because that term adopts the narrow mindset of economics. It tends to judge everything only in terms of practical costs and benefits and doesn't value freedom.

The reason I don't use nonfree software is that it would take away my freedom. I don't want to let that happen. So I don't consider installing nonfree program, even as an possible option. I treat them as poison. I hope that you will too.

I don't know whether our community will make a "high end video game" which is free software, but I am sure that if you try, you can stretch your taste for games so that you will enjoy the free games that we have developed.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#36

Post by jballanc »

Ah RMS, same fundamentalist as always!

One thing I would suggest, for those not familiar with RMS's history, is to take a moment to read the Wikipedia page on Lisp Machines. Specifically, this passage:

Symbolics still had the major advantage that while 3 or 4 of the AI Lab hackers had gone to work for Greenblatt, a solid 14 other hackers had signed onto Symbolics. There were two AI Lab people who did not get hired by either: Richard Stallman and Marvin Minsky. Stallman, however, blamed Symbolics for the decline of the hacker community that had centered around the AI lab. For two years, from 1982 to the end of 1983, Stallman worked by himself to clone the output of the Symbolics programmers, with the aim of preventing them from gaining a monopoly on the lab's computers

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine

I find, knowing a bit of the backstory, that RMS is a more sympathetic character. Honestly, I can't say that, put in the same position, I might not have arrived at the same world view he did.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#37

Post by moxiemk1 »

logic wrote: post #14

I expect most responses here will be pretty negative, and I honestly can't defend his position because our politics differ so greatly (and his stance spins directly out of those philosophical roots). Nor can I forgive his personal attitude and general arrogance over the years, although it has softened significantly of late. But I'll give the man a grudging amount of respect: he hasn't budged one inch on his position…

I normally have the same sentiment about RMS, but one of his responses here really ticked me off in the 'clarity of purpose' department: The bit about the microwaves (#23)

'Installing software' is a fairly abstract concept, especially given how liberally RMS likes to see the GPL used beyond normal software. To that end, I think that if he were truly logically pure, the same logic would apply to the iPhone. But, he would never agree that allowing something like an iPhone to be OK with free software (rightfully so), and so I think that should have demanded that every bit of that microwave be free. And everything else in his life.

Also, his comments on co-op food "Thus, food co-ops are not useful for me. I like them in principle." GPL-encumbered libraries are not useful for me. I like them in principle. Good day sir.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#38

Post by whyenot »

gaius wrote: post #7

I decided that I would rather do something good with no monetary reward than profit by mistreating people A $1M grant from the MacArthur foundation and another $1M from the Takeda foundation tends to skew one's view of economics somewhat.

He had no permanent residence, no salary, and lived out of his office at MIT for years before he got either of those awards.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#39

Post by mquander »

benofsky wrote: post #33
ohyes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is actually the opposite of that. > You have a choice between deserving a reward and not getting a material reward, and getting one but not deserving it. I think that RMS sees our current society as intrinsically flawed with regard to how it is that we reward people for their good and hard work (and the behavior patterns associated with that work). It is not that he lives in a world where no one has to mak…

The fact of the matter though is that it is not financially viable in any way (or ever will be) for all software to be "free" in the sense of RMS "free". How could a company like Google, built fundamentally on trade secrets, ever be developed. No one would invest the kind of money that was required to build Google into what it is today if Microsoft could go to Github and download "google-search". It is pie in the sky…

Wait a second. Why do you think the world is better, having Google, than it would be if "google-search" was on Github and hosted by a bunch of people? That sounds worse to me.

I assume you think that the existence of Google has led to other good things, but I don't see any reason to believe that the people at Google are doing better or more valuable work there than they would be if Google didn't exist.

Re: Richard Stallman answers Reddit's top 25 questions.

#40

Post by tptacek »

Here is someone who really, really needs to read Saul Alinsky:

15. MendaSpain: Hi Richard. I love all GPL software, but I have a dilemma:

I'm writing a program which needs a lot of time to be coded but at the same time it's really easy to be used. I could license it as GPL and wait for donations, but from other people's experience just almost nobody make donations to free software projects. Support is not necessary because as I've said before, it's a really easy to use software and nobody would pay for a 3 page manual.

For "big" software it's easy to get money using any GNU license, but for "little" software the only option I see is selling it using the Apple App Store approach.

What can I do in this case?

RMS: You have a choice between deserving a reward and not getting a material reward, and getting one but not deserving it.

RMS: I faced the same question at the beginning of the GNU Project. I decided that I would rather do something good with no monetary reward than profit by mistreating people. I hope you will do the same, because that way your program will be a contribution to society instead of a social problem.

Yikes.

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