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Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

robert.ocallahan.org

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flavor-of-the-day is UAP/UWP, which actually has awesome APIs. The only problem is that it's Windows 10+ and can't make universal or standalone binaries.

> and can't make universal or standalone binaries Highly ironic for a framework that's called Universal Windows Platform :D

Two different meanings of the word. I meant a single binary that can run on multiple versions of Windows. They mean universal as in one codebase that will deploy to PC, phone, and Xbox.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#32
This has parallels with the secret groundbreaking military technology that "60 Minutes"[1] was talking about in 2008. When you have unlimited capacity to store data and the processing power to tag objects (or people!) in real-time when you play it back, all kinds of new possibilities arise for software or surveillance (good and evil).

My assumption is that the revolutionary advance was military aerial camera systems (such as Angel Fire) that continuously record movement over an entire city in high resolution. When something happens, you can play it backwards to see who drove or walked where, who met whom, find all the connections between people, and trace events to the beginning.

[1] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/60minutes/main4415...

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#33

This has parallels with the secret groundbreaking military technology that "60 Minutes"[1] was talking about in 2008. When you have unlimited capacity to store data and the processing power to tag objects (or people!) in real-time when you play it back, all kinds of new possibilities arise for software or surveillance (good and evil). My assumption is that the revolutionary advance was military aerial camera systems…

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting what constitutes a military breakthrough these days. A real nation-state with a military-industrial complex would just shoot that thing down.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#34
Tools like this have always been how Microsoft segments the highest-price "Ultimate" version of Visual Studio (or whatever MS marketing has renamed things this month).

As best I can tell there is no mention in this article of how this feature will be priced, which winds up limiting how often it will be useful simply because of availability. Let me know when this shows up in the free SKUs ("Express") or perhaps even the drug-pusher-like "Community" (first hit is free, unless/until you're making money) edition.

It is perfectly reasonable​ on their part as a company selling dev tools to do this; I just feel like I'm window-shopping, unable to actually afford the really cool bits. In my dreams I am way off base and this functionality is freely available for all now - I kind of have the feeling something similar been around for a while in the Ultimate SKU.

(Also, let me know if this ever comes to managed code.)

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#35

This has parallels with the secret groundbreaking military technology that "60 Minutes"[1] was talking about in 2008. When you have unlimited capacity to store data and the processing power to tag objects (or people!) in real-time when you play it back, all kinds of new possibilities arise for software or surveillance (good and evil). My assumption is that the revolutionary advance was military aerial camera systems…

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting what constitutes a military breakthrough these days. A real nation-state with a military-industrial complex would just shoot that thing down.

Breakthroughs are situational. Many first tier militaries spend time thinking about urban pacification. Within those contexts, it really is a breakthrough.

Just like how stealth aircraft were a breakthrough, and also totally useless in this situation.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the fact that you're simply not right (COM, MFC, ATL, SWF, WPF, etc are all deprecated yet still supported and maintained), how is this on topic?

COM used to be treated as a legacy technology by Microsoft, but it is pretty central now.

True, WinRT is built on COM.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#37
post #34

Tools like this have always been how Microsoft segments the highest-price "Ultimate" version of Visual Studio (or whatever MS marketing has renamed things this month). As best I can tell there is no mention in this article of how this feature will be priced, which winds up limiting how often it will be useful simply because of availability. Let me know when this shows up in the free SKUs ("Express") or perhaps even t…

TTD is a feature of WinDbg (free), not VS.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#38
post #10

As the article talk mentions it as well; I wonder how good it scales for long running binaries and how well it integrates with stuff like .net native. I mean doing artificial demos on a dll is cool, but how well will it scale for say tracing bug in say a key-value store than runs for days and then crashes.

As far as I know, .NET Native isn't really something you're supposed to be running for development; just a target you compile to for maximum performance that should produce identical results (think of it as an uber-release mode).

I’ve found and reported multiple critical bugs in .NET Native compiler. http://stackoverflow.com/q/34187890/126995 https://github.com/Const-me/EsentSerialize/commit/ea2cc7be58... The third one (only reported via e-mail), .NET Native fails to marshal custom COM interfaces implemented in C# classes to C++ libraries, at least on ARM for Win10 IoT.

Maybe .NET Native should produce identical results, but in practice it doesn’t always do that.

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#39
The idea of traveling forward and back in time in a debugger has been around for a long time, even before the era of modern programming the idea was explored and implemented. I recall conversations with people working on this in the 1970's, but I never saw one working in action.

I've never had much use for debuggers. Of course I've had bugs that could have been found faster with debuggers, but I usually find myself using logs of the information I want to be quicker to work with. Of course this depends upon the program and the environment one is debugging in. I'd rather reason about the program statically than try to follow it dynamically in a debugger.

On the other hand, one of the best kernel programmers I ever worked with carried his own debugger around and would implement it in a new kernel he was working on just so he could have it at hand. (That's you Dammon if you're out there!)

[1969] Rand's Extendable Debugging and Monitoring System, https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_memorand...

[1988] Feldman, S.I. and Brown, C.B. (1988). Igor: A system for program debugging via reversible execution. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.85. 2238&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Re: Thoughts on Microsoft's Time-Travel Debugger

#40
post #34

Tools like this have always been how Microsoft segments the highest-price "Ultimate" version of Visual Studio (or whatever MS marketing has renamed things this month). As best I can tell there is no mention in this article of how this feature will be priced, which winds up limiting how often it will be useful simply because of availability. Let me know when this shows up in the free SKUs ("Express") or perhaps even t…

It's freely available in the Windows 10 store as "WinDbg Preview". I recall reading somewhere that they will be rolling it into the Windows SDK once the preview is complete.

WinDbg can work with managed code through extensions, see https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/de....

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