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Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#31

Post by Icedcool »

Wow... I found this article, particularly well written and enjoyable, not favoring the usual (UP WITH WOMEN, DOWN WITH MEN) rhetoric that seems fairly common in some circles on the internet.

The final paragraph is particularly poignant:

"It may be true, as developmental research suggests, that boys tend to be more active and take longer, on average, to learn to control their impulses. But those are challenges that well-trained teachers and informed parents should be able to handle. Boys are not defective; schools are. The fact that boys are struggling around the world means that too many schools are designed with a bias for girls. Too many teachers prefer compliance over competition, quiet diligence over risk-taking, and on average that leads to schools that are more comfortable for girls than for boys in every time zone. But given the world they are inheriting, just as boys need to learn to focus, girls need to learn to take risks.

And neither can thrive in a world where the other is diminished."

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#33

Post by analog31 »

adamnemecek wrote: post #5
Mayzie wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education is important, the idea of school in the current format is outdated and retarded. However this is unlikely to change since students have very little power to change things. What would you do differently?

The idea of a person chewing things for you is stupid. People should go at their pace. I’ve found that out of the six plus hours that you spend in school, only a small fraction is spent productively. So much is wasted on administrative matters. I also found the switching between subjects to be really annoying. Like what if I want to spend half a day a week on the single subject as oppposed to an hour every day. Conte…

In my experience, how I learned things depended on the subject. I needed the classroom environment in order to learn math and physics: The motivation to keep plugging away at it for 15+ years, and the interaction that teaches how to communicate ideas in those areas. Mathematicians and physicists seldom make things. We have to communicate and collaborate to get things done, when we're thrown into a typical commercial environment.

On the other hand, I easily learned electronics and programming on my own. In both subjects, a single introductory course got me started, then I was on my way.

I wonder if the appeal of HN to programmers is why there is a strong sentiment against traditional education, and in favor of self learning. Other than being easy, programming may simply lend itself to self learning for some reason.

Perhaps figuring out what makes programming easy to self-learn, would help us figure out how to teach other subjects better. Or we may realize that unless we want everybody to be a programmer, we may still need traditional education.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#34

Post by e40 »

gkya wrote: post #27
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

Second this. I'm from Turkey, we don't have gender separation in education, but your quotes hold. Also, being geeky at school is mostly a feminine thing, and not caring about school is way cooler . The result being girls usually do better in most circumstances.

I wonder if this has the effect of making males feel resentment toward females, and thus making the already great number of problems between males and females even greater.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#35

Post by lordfoom »

adamnemecek wrote: post #25
lvoudour wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time. I strongly disagree, but I'm willing to hear a viable alternative that covers millions of children/families (eg. no private tutoring or homeschooling). Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize and parents focus on their work.

Right, give them a desk and a book. > Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize Yeah don't force me to socialize pls. Also how much time is really given in school for socialization?

> Right, give them a desk and a book.

How do you propose they learn to read the book?

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#36

Post by zbentley »

tomp wrote: post #26
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/m…

> Can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/media?

Sports. Military Service. Working Fathers.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#37

Post by lvoudour »

adamnemecek wrote: post #25
lvoudour wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it’s a good time to talk about the fact that school is largely a waste of time. I strongly disagree, but I'm willing to hear a viable alternative that covers millions of children/families (eg. no private tutoring or homeschooling). Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize and parents focus on their work.

Right, give them a desk and a book. > Let's not forget that school also helps children socialize Yeah don't force me to socialize pls. Also how much time is really given in school for socialization?

>Right, give them a desk and a book.

> Yeah don't force me to socialize pls.

Most people like socializing and benefit from it (which in turn benefits society), you can't possibly ask for a system that caters to the few who don't like it. The "desk and book" may work when you're in college but it definitely doesn't work for children. Even in college you have professors/lecturers to guide you (and check your progress).

I think you're just making general assumptions based on your own experience and abilities. Not everyone is like you (or me for that matter, I too prefer reading a book than being lectured). I personally know very few people who enjoy educating themselves (let alone children and teenagers)

The only serious alternatives through history are private tutoring and homeschooling. The former requires wealth, the later thoroughly educated parents with free time. They just don't scale to millions whichever way you look at it

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#38

Post by adamnemecek »

analog31 wrote: post #33
adamnemecek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of a person chewing things for you is stupid. People should go at their pace. I’ve found that out of the six plus hours that you spend in school, only a small fraction is spent productively. So much is wasted on administrative matters. I also found the switching between subjects to be really annoying. Like what if I want to spend half a day a week on the single subject as oppposed to an hour every day. Conte…

In my experience, how I learned things depended on the subject. I needed the classroom environment in order to learn math and physics: The motivation to keep plugging away at it for 15+ years, and the interaction that teaches how to communicate ideas in those areas. Mathematicians and physicists seldom make things. We have to communicate and collaborate to get things done, when we're thrown into a typical commercial…

> Other than being easy, programming may simply lend itself to self learning for some reason.

If programming is easy, you definitely aren't challenging yourself.

> Perhaps figuring out what makes programming easy to self-learn, would help us figure out how to teach other subjects better.

It's the fact that you are having a conversation with computer and you can explore things and get somewhat immediate feedback. These things are currently somewhat lacking for math and physics.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#39

Post by BorgHunter »

tomp wrote: post #26
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/m…

> Also, can you give any examples of "toxic femininity" behaviours?

The idea that women should be subservient and avoid conflict at all costs would be an example of "toxic femininity". It's a mirror image of behaviors that come under "toxic masculinity", though, so I'm not sure if the term has any utility.

Re: Why Are Middle East Girls Better in School Than Boys?

#40

Post by thesmallestcat »

tomp wrote: post #26
pjc50 wrote: post #9

The answer seems to be "toxic masculinity". (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) > For one thing, boys’ schools are more violent places, concluded the study > Boys also reported worse relationships with their male teachers > male teachers were three times as…

> (Since I had to clarify this last time: the term refers to expressions or expectations of masculinity and masculine behaviour that are toxic, not a claim that masculinity is toxic in and of itself.) I'd suggest that the term itself is toxic (and/or sexist). If you think otherwise, can you suggest examples of (stereotypically) masculine behaviours that aren't considered toxic, but positive by the mainstream public/m…

Hear hear, and I'd prefer people stop overusing "toxic." Not everything that's bad, or that you disagree with, is "toxic." The person who screws with your team dynamic is not "toxic."
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