Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 122 posts

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#31

Post by lightbyte »

abtinf wrote: post #25
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

It does not sound like you understand what net neutrality is. Have you read their statement on it [1]?

[1] https://www.eff.org/issues/net-neutrality

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#32

Post by frandroid »

abtinf wrote: post #25
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

So you're taking the "pro-corporate control" position instead. Brilliant.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#33

Post by mr_overalls »

abtinf wrote: post #25
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

It's only state intervention in that it limits the potential tyranny of corporate behemoths to abuse the citizenry and subvert free markets.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#34

Post by jetti »

ironix wrote: post #15
meri_dian wrote: post #6

If they can search your bags without a warrant at the border, why can't they search your phone or laptop? Edit: Contraband can be both physical and digital. If the government can conduct searches for physical contraband then searches for digital contraband in certain circumstances like border crossings seems reasonable.

I like to think of it in terms of house keys. It's one thing if a border guard inspects your house key you brought along, analyzes for dangerous substances, drugs, etc. It's another if they clone that key and have someone drive out to inspect your house with it. To me, your house in this scenario is your entire collection of private data accessible online / remotely (finances, taxes, possibly the private data of othe…

"possibly even portals to HIPAA/other PII data of a more commercial nature)."

You bring up a good point about HIPAA. I work in health care and we are allowed to keep a work email client on our phone provided that we keep control of our phone at all time (to keep PHI/HIPAA info safe). A border agent searching through my phone could be considered a HIPAA violation and would have to be reported. Not sure if anything would come out of it fine wise for the company but it would still be a nightmare for compliance.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#35

Post by justinpombrio »

martinflack wrote: post #22
meri_dian wrote: post #6

If they can search your bags without a warrant at the border, why can't they search your phone or laptop? Edit: Contraband can be both physical and digital. If the government can conduct searches for physical contraband then searches for digital contraband in certain circumstances like border crossings seems reasonable.

Your phone / laptop is now digitally connected to everything in your life. Giving access of that over to a government agent is like handing them a diary of everything you ever thought, a list of everyone you ever met, a record of everywhere you ever went, a list of every book you've ever read, a list of every medication you've ever taken, a list of every game you've ever played, a list of every off-color joke you've…

Many of which fit the legal definition of papers:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Paper

which are protected from being searched by the fourth amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

(I quoted the modern legal definition of papers, but the proper thing to look up is the colloquial definition of papers at the time the constitution was written. Does anyone have a good reference for how the founders of the US would have used the word "papers"? It clearly included legal and accounting documents, but e.g. was it broader than that?)

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#36

Post by sdenton4 »

abtinf wrote: post #25
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

A few years ago, I considered starting regular donations to the EFF. Unfortunately, I did not realize they had taken pro position on state intervention and control of the Internet, a concept generally described with the orwellian phrase "net neutrality." This position directly contradicts much of the their advocacy that I wanted to support.

And why must the government insert itself into free speech issues by passing radical regulations like the first amendment? For shame!

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#37

Post by ceejayoz »

derefr wrote: post #29

Interesting question to me: is any country offering easy-to-attain diplomatic-courier status, such that I could (legitimately) label my laptop bag as a diplomatic pouch to protect it from search? (Yes, it's more complex than this; you'd have to be able to upload a manifest of what's in the bag and what it weighs to some service of that country's government, and then the country's embassy here would forward the manife…

It'd have to be on a very small scale.

Countries get to limit the number of staff a foreign embassy is allowed to bring in, and they can kick folks out of the country.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#38

Post by ironix »

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen.

I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will.

Crossing back into the US, I am less concerned. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will NOT. The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention, and I know at the end of it, I can reach out to the EFF to seek representation in a larger action.

Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? I realize trying to subvert any Canadian border search is not a good idea, but it's a good middle-grounds vs. "don't go to Canada" or "give them all your private data", I think. On the other hand, I am willing to be more stringent with the US border because (A) I am a citizen, I cannot be refused entry, and (B) this is a cause I would like to participate in, so invite any negative outcome caused by my refusal to unlock the device or share any logins.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#39

Post by adekok »

derefr wrote: post #27
martinflack wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your phone / laptop is now digitally connected to everything in your life. Giving access of that over to a government agent is like handing them a diary of everything you ever thought, a list of everyone you ever met, a record of everywhere you ever went, a list of every book you've ever read, a list of every medication you've ever taken, a list of every game you've ever played, a list of every off-color joke you've…

Another thing that contains all those same things is "your brain." It's harder to get the facts out of it, but those TSA interview rooms represent an attempt. If that is allowed, then I don't see what's better/worse about searching your digital exobrain instead. Either way, you're handing over "you" on a silver platter.

Answer one: speed

Assuming you have perfect recall, and answer all of their questions truthfully, it will still take time for them to troll through all of your memories and actions.

They can do the same with a telephone / laptop in minutes.

Answer two: perfect recall

You can't recall everything perfectly, and you don't write everything down. So after a while, they won't have anything to go on. "What did you do in Thailand last Wednesday?" ... "I dunno, I got drunk with my friends?"

Versus "we searched your phone and you took pictures last Wednesday of someone who looks underage. Please turn around for the handcuffs".

In general, I have everything to hide from state actors with near-infinite resources, zero accountability, a deep understanding of the law (i.e. how to get you for almost anything), and their own personal agenda to push.

They should need to prove to me why they need to look at my stuff.

Post reply on HN