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France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

reuters.com

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Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#31

Post by alkonaut »

microcolonel wrote: post #24
the8472 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google benefits from approximately no government infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain They directly depend on the infrastructure to reach their customers. And they indirectly depend on the people having a high standard of living which also requires infrastructure. If your country is a 3rd-world shithole without infrastructure you'll have a very hard time selling your products which sit high on maslow'…

Which infrastructure? What infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, which is used by Google to reach their customers, is built and/or maintained by the governments of those countries?

Not sure I understand the question. Isn't that "most of it"?

I use a road to get to work. My work pay my salary. My salary pays amazon for crap delivered to my house. The package comes delivered on the same road. The internet connection I used to visit amazons page is delivered via fiber to my house, funded just like other infrastructure. So the road and fiber was very important for my society being a developed high-income one, which is why I'm buying crap from the internet in the first place.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#32

Post by frostburg »

microcolonel wrote: post #2

The idea of a revenue tax of course contradicts the stated justifications for existing taxes on business: the funding of ephemeral services which contribute indirectly to the business's revenue. Google benefits from approximately no government infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, but they want to get their grubby hands on it nonetheless.

Who do you think paid for the bulk of the infrastructure that makes internet access work in these countries? You're talking like a parody libertarian.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#33

Post by Oletros »

ben_w wrote: post #30
Oletros wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Google or Apple declares losses in Spain having record revenues so they have fiscal benefits when that country has a very big crisis then we have a big problem. But hey, those countries ajust want to get their grubby hand in those poor companies.

> just want to get their grubby hand in those poor companies I find it fascinating that such emotive language is used. Taxation is pretty much the least "grubby" hand a government has (military: give us all your stuff, legislature: do all our work for us, we will tell you what we think adequate compensation is); and these companies are not only not poor, they are among the richest on the planet and they got almost al…

> I find it fascinating that such emotive language is used.

I thought that the sarcastic tone was clear :)

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#34

Post by JanSt »

cs702 wrote: post #23

I wonder what the impact will be on these companies' ability to compete against entrenched players in those EU countries. For example, will this make Amazon's prices non-competitive with European bricks-and-mortar retailers? I also wonder what the impact will be on their stock prices, because taxes on top-line revenues have a disproportionate impact on profit margins. For example, a 5% tax on revenues would render Am…

Currently these giants have to pay less than bricks-and-mortar retailers[1], which is why the system is unfair. Amazon pays less taxes on a book sold than a small 1-person shop across the street. Until very recently, they didn't pay taxes in some countries at all [2]

[1] http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/steueroase-luxemburg-a...

[2] http://www.sueddeutsche.de/news/politik/eu-amazon-zahlt-jetz...

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#35

Post by ben_w »

andrepd wrote: post #19
microcolonel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is not responsible for the corrupt and decadent governments in countries they don't operate out of; they're hardly responsible for it where they do operate. When China manipulates the markets so much that they collapse, and when Sweden spends its way into poverty, it will not be Google's fault, nor their responsibility to pay for it.

Decadent? I take issue. Google, like virtually every large corporation in the world, spends a significant amount of time and resources finding the optimal way to pay the least amount of taxes, through loopholes, borderline or actually illegal schemes, lobbying etc. We're supposed to blame the countries for being defrauded in this way, not the multinationals doing the defrauding? Come off it. You want to do business i…

I view tax codes like buggy software, lawful tax minimisation like zero day exploits — only difference is that the law is not above itself, so if the tax loophole is legal, then it's legal.

That said, just because something is legal doesn't make it moral, but even though I think we agree on that, I'd have to argue loopholes are totally in the domain of legislators to fix — if I understand correctly, UK law requires tax payers to report any minimisation schemes they are party to. Does that have teeth? I don't know, but it's a thought.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#36

Post by ben_w »

Oletros wrote: post #33
ben_w wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just want to get their grubby hand in those poor companies I find it fascinating that such emotive language is used. Taxation is pretty much the least "grubby" hand a government has (military: give us all your stuff, legislature: do all our work for us, we will tell you what we think adequate compensation is); and these companies are not only not poor, they are among the richest on the planet and they got almost al…

> I find it fascinating that such emotive language is used. I thought that the sarcastic tone was clear :)

I hear it too often from people who say it in earnest, sorry. :)

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#37

Post by justinmk »

Nokinside wrote: post #29

There is room for innovation in taxation. We need new smart taxation for information economy. Taxing network externalizes and economic barriers for entry for example. Taxation could be used as natural pressure to correct market failures. Taxing revenue is not what EU countries propose, but it could be viable solution. Thinking aloud: If company has market share of X% of the population it pays tax from the revenue rel…

> Taxation could be used as natural pressure to correct market failures.

Taxation isn't natural.

By the way, I'd like to remind everyone: when the state taxes something, the state now depends on that thing for its budget.

> If retail company that has 30% market share pays 0.3% extra from its revenue compared to tiny company with just 10,000 customers, it would probably be enough to even out the field and limit barriers to entry.

If you are really interested in barriers to entry, you can do a thought-experiment (or a real experiment): try to start a business. See where the friction is. And then ask yourself what the barriers were.

Another thought-experiment: imagine if starting and running a business (which includes collecting revenue, paying employees, paying taxes, abiding by the law) were nearly zero-friction. If starting a business had very low artificial friction, then there would _actually_ be natural pressure against market incumbents.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#38

Post by albertgoeswoof »

> A French court ruled in July French court ruled that Google, now part of Alphabet Inc, was not liable to pay 1.1 billion euros ($1.3 billion) in back taxes because it had no “permanent establishment” in France and ran its operations there from Ireland.

How strange. I didn't know Google were an Irish company. I see them when I connect to the internet from all over the world.

It looks like Airbnb also have their EMEA HQ there, as do Apple, eBay, Facebook, IBM, HP, ..., ...

I guess there must be a really big internet market in Ireland for all those guys to be focused on that location, right?

On another note, I tried to pay my taxes through an off-shore location, but I quickly realised I would get jail time for tax evasion.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#39

Post by eloff »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #38

> A French court ruled in July French court ruled that Google, now part of Alphabet Inc, was not liable to pay 1.1 billion euros ($1.3 billion) in back taxes because it had no “permanent establishment” in France and ran its operations there from Ireland. How strange. I didn't know Google were an Irish company. I see them when I connect to the internet from all over the world. It looks like Airbnb also have their EMEA…

That's illegal for a person to do, but legal for these big companies. Don't blame the companies for exploiting loopholes. Blame the law. Fix the law.

Re: France, Germany, Italy, Spain seek to base taxes on digital giants' revenues

#40

Post by Atropos »

microcolonel wrote: post #24
the8472 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google benefits from approximately no government infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain They directly depend on the infrastructure to reach their customers. And they indirectly depend on the people having a high standard of living which also requires infrastructure. If your country is a 3rd-world shithole without infrastructure you'll have a very hard time selling your products which sit high on maslow'…

Which infrastructure? What infrastructure in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain, which is used by Google to reach their customers, is built and/or maintained by the governments of those countries?

The legal system and independent courts etc are an infrastructure it depends on - Google had to leave China due to problems with the local legal system
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