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Java EE

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Re: Java EE

#31

Post by rbanffy »

0xbear wrote: post #15
bad_user wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On C# having had an incomplete ECMA specification always lagging behind and source code made available under an obscure, non- open-source, legally tainting license acting as a boobytrap for anything commercial DOES NOT count as open . Even now they are being disingenuous about license changes, witness for example the leadership of this project changing license from Apache 2.0 to MIT and being obtuse about the licensi…

.NET is far beyond Java as a platform for building languages though, and it's been that way right from the start. Reified generics, value types, structs, unsigned integer type support, intermediate language actually optimized for compilation. It's pretty nice. For some reason Java people have a near allergic reaction to it though.

Not sure how it is now, but the requirement to run Windows in order to be a first class citizen, as .NET required for most of its existence, is enough to give me an allergic reaction.

Re: Java EE

#32

Post by sandGorgon »

myth_drannon wrote: post #17

Looking at the people who belong to this organization, I get the feeling that the majority of the JavaEE development was outsourced to India.

interesting - the members are a mix of people from around the world, including Oracle India (just as is Amazon India or Google India or Microsoft India).

Time to invoke SandGorgon's law of outsourcing analogies - "As an online discussion about PROGRAMMING grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving outsourcing or Indians approaches 1, if Godwin's law has not already been satisfied"

http://www.lambdacurry.com/2010/07/sandgorgons-law-of-outsou...

Re: Java EE

#33

Post by rbanffy »

dtech wrote: post #29
0xbear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET is far beyond Java as a platform for building languages though, and it's been that way right from the start. Reified generics, value types, structs, unsigned integer type support, intermediate language actually optimized for compilation. It's pretty nice. For some reason Java people have a near allergic reaction to it though.

Yep, the CLR/VM is a much better target for languages and C# fixes a lot of Java's mistakes. It's such a shame that Microsoft until recently kept it so tightly controlled and Windows only. If that hadn't been the case the ecosystem (libraries and languages) might have been a lot more up to par when compared to the JVM ecosystem.

> kept it so tightly controlled and Windows only

Make no mistake: Microsoft knows very well what its business model is. Sun was very confused in that respect.

Re: Java EE

#34

Post by holydude »

pjmlp wrote: post #27
g051051 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaking Microsoft's purely reactive strategy to something like real planning and commitment to open source. MSFT has been pushing into that area (sort of) recently because they kept getting their lunch stolen by all of the open source technologies out there. Do you think it was anything but the most incredible terror and desperation that drove them to add a Linux subsystem to Windows? To open source their "c…

As much as I like .NET, the truth is that they are loosing mindshare among new generations. "Microsoft’s Open Source Developer Journey" https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Live-2017/Key...

They are but they are trying to adapt. .NET core is an extremely aggressive way for them to attract the new generation.

It's funny because the new generations still use Windows to develop on and Linux to deploy to and no one is denying this. But Microsoft somehow is accepting this shift and is trying to bring its stack on Linux and also Linux on Windows.

I think Microsoft is smart,they really realized unlike Oracle and others that sometimes you cannot people force to use or do whatever you think is the best (looking at you Oracle,IBM,Apple) and literally giving people what they want is the best thing you can do to turn the tides.

Re: Java EE

#35

Post by rbanffy »

runako wrote: post #12
nxc18 wrote: post #3

How is this just happening now? Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities, but C# has been ahead of them since its start with an open specification, open implementations, and for the past few years, a full-throttle open source effort. What's going on?

> Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities Don't forget the business community. To a first order approximation, most programmers who get paid to write code work in either C#/.NET or Java. Everything else is a relatively small minority of paid development work.

Java is the 21st century COBOL. And no, I mean it as a compliment. It takes a colossal amount of effort to become a de facto standard.

Re: Java EE

#36

Post by 0xbear »

dtech wrote: post #29
0xbear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET is far beyond Java as a platform for building languages though, and it's been that way right from the start. Reified generics, value types, structs, unsigned integer type support, intermediate language actually optimized for compilation. It's pretty nice. For some reason Java people have a near allergic reaction to it though.

Yep, the CLR/VM is a much better target for languages and C# fixes a lot of Java's mistakes. It's such a shame that Microsoft until recently kept it so tightly controlled and Windows only. If that hadn't been the case the ecosystem (libraries and languages) might have been a lot more up to par when compared to the JVM ecosystem.

It never was "Windows only": https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749640.aspx. Mono arrived shortly thereafter. And it had open spec right from the start. Patents were an issue though, there's no disagreement on that point.

Re: Java EE

#37

Post by 0xbear »

pjmlp wrote: post #25
0xbear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET is far beyond Java as a platform for building languages though, and it's been that way right from the start. Reified generics, value types, structs, unsigned integer type support, intermediate language actually optimized for compilation. It's pretty nice. For some reason Java people have a near allergic reaction to it though.

Sun had an allergic reaction to it. Oracle has improved it quite a bit and all those features are being worked on for Java 10.

And they will be worked on for at least the next decade. Meanwhile .NET had them for 16 years now.

Re: Java EE

#38

Post by holydude »

rbanffy wrote: post #31
0xbear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET is far beyond Java as a platform for building languages though, and it's been that way right from the start. Reified generics, value types, structs, unsigned integer type support, intermediate language actually optimized for compilation. It's pretty nice. For some reason Java people have a near allergic reaction to it though.

Not sure how it is now, but the requirement to run Windows in order to be a first class citizen, as .NET required for most of its existence, is enough to give me an allergic reaction.

I was the same. I lived only UNIX/Linux and knew where things were. In retrospect I can't even look into the mirror now on how wrong I was.

Don't take me wrong I am not saying that Windows / MS stack is better. It's just as good! And that's the beauty of it. I am glad microsoft is embracing other platforms so lets see how other people will react :-)

Re: Java EE

#39

Post by devonkim »

geodel wrote: post #22
myth_drannon wrote: post #17

Looking at the people who belong to this organization, I get the feeling that the majority of the JavaEE development was outsourced to India.

Isn't the whole J2EE business evolved for outsourcing IT work?

J2EE was designed for an era when big, monolithic entities were creating most of the production-grade software out there, SMP hardware was extremely expensive and capital-intensive, and open source software was largely considered a joke by those with the buying decisions. It made sense to try to target large entities that have developed decades of abstractions supposedly meant to reflect how complex (perhaps complected?) their business layer logic is and that their software architecture should be tightly coupled to it as such.

J2EE became a target for offshore software projects primarily because of its userbase being organizations that are fundamentally not software companies and that are constantly trying to cut costs while being unable to migrate off these systems quickly simply due to their sheer organizational inertia. These companies culturally haven't scaled based upon much more than bodies (a typical enterprise M&A is fundamentally more bodies and access to specific customer bodies rather than a strategic technology play given how slow M&A works in practice), and these are oftentimes the companies you see in newspapers that are experiencing business difficulties - what skilled, talented developers want to stake their careers working on software used only by a community that is in a multi-decade crisis?

Even if you spend a lot though, outcomes are not necessarily great either. US DoD is a great example of tons of J2EE on their backends with unremarkable outcomes despite having spent perhaps more dollars on software engineering effort than probably Google has in the past 30 years cumulatively (where the money goes is another topic).

It's tough problems as a large company that thought they were getting ahead of the technology curve back in the 90s and are now the dinosaurs and fossils.

Re: Java EE

#40

Post by stupidcar »

g051051 wrote: post #16
nxc18 wrote: post #3

How is this just happening now? Java is super popular in the open source and academic communities, but C# has been ahead of them since its start with an open specification, open implementations, and for the past few years, a full-throttle open source effort. What's going on?

You're mistaking Microsoft's purely reactive strategy to something like real planning and commitment to open source. MSFT has been pushing into that area (sort of) recently because they kept getting their lunch stolen by all of the open source technologies out there. Do you think it was anything but the most incredible terror and desperation that drove them to add a Linux subsystem to Windows? To open source their "c…

It's funny how software developers have no problem whatsoever dealing with complexity, except when it comes to corporate behaviour, when they are unable to conceive of a company as anything other than a single, gestalt entity, with a single opinion and purpose, whose actions are driven by the most basic emotions and can be classified as good or evil with absolutely no grey-area.

In the real world, companies are made up of lots of individuals, all with strong, differing opinions. Some people at Microsoft undoubtedly hate open source. Some of them undoubtedly love it. Many of them are probably, like most developers, somewhere in-between. They have no ideological investment, they just make use of it when it's useful.

Having actually worked in the Microsoft ecosystem in past, I know that there have been people there for years who like open source, and who have pushed to make Microsoft a more open company. There's no doubt that competitive concerns have driven some of Microsoft's embrace of particular open source technologies, but to characterise their entire approach to open source as being: 1) entirely recent, and 2) completely fearful and reactive, has no basis in recorded fact, and does an appalling disservice to the many people who have spent many years (successfully) trying to change Microsoft's internal culture and make it more friendly to open source.

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