India demonetisation fails to purge black money • Hacker News Board

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#31

Post by virtuabhi » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

rm2889 wrote: post #12

ramshanker wrote: post #6

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded?…

> Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means

Can be said of 99% governments in the world.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#32

Post by virtuabhi » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

rm2889 wrote: post #12

ramshanker wrote: post #6

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded?…

> the bureaucracy is now larger and more powerful than ever under this government

Umm... no. The red tape is now minimal at the Central government level. Digital, removal of archaic laws, clearly defined parameters for bids, etc.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#33

Post by sabujp » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

paapi__gudiya wrote: post #13

ramshanker wrote: post #6

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

Road-side merchants live hand-to-mouth and would anyways not contribute to tax because their incomes are so low. Every study out there suggests that demonetisation was a big blunder, causing a very severe blow to the Indian economy, including the death of 150+ civilians. The real motive for demonetisation was to legitimize the black money of the ruling party BJP and eliminate black money of opposition parties.

This, there's so much corruption its ridiculous.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#34

Post by Bhilai » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

General sentiment is that the BJP government did this to purge the black money held by opposition parties to win the UP (Uttar Pradesh) state elections. Demonitization exercise did not come as a surprise to most BJP insiders, who had already made arrangements to stash their black money away.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#35

Post by Bhilai » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

ramshanker wrote: post #6

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

> Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments.

Can you provide a source on this ?

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#36

Post by Bhilai » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

gauravhp wrote: post #27

All Positive comments here are made by those who don't live in india and are influenced by massive propaganda machinery that ruling parting of india is running. As someone who actually lives in india, I am vouch that Demonetisation was a disaster of all sorts. Ruling party kept justifying this failure by shifting the goal posts again and again. Here is a piece which describes in detail, this monumental failure of ind…

This sounds pretty accurate. Not sure why you are being downvoted.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#37

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

nkskalyan wrote: post #25

vthallam wrote: post #20

>Arun Jaitley, finance minister, on Thursday defended the demonetisation at a conference in New Delhi. He admitted that black money had come back into the banking system, but said that tax officials were combing through people’s accounts to identify and tax it. >He said: “The fact that money has got into the banking system does not mean that it is all now legitimate . . . The money got identified with the owner whom…

Question is, was it worth it? Weren't there easier ways to increase Digital payments? Better ways to make people put money into banks? Was it worth killing people? http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/17/day-9-demonetisation...

'Killing people' makes it sounds like they were shooting anyone who objected, but that article does do a good job of documenting the human cost of economic dislocation. The abrupt and absolute change appears to have given rise to numerous avoidable problems.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#38

Post by dman » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

nkskalyan wrote: post #25

vthallam wrote: post #20

>Arun Jaitley, finance minister, on Thursday defended the demonetisation at a conference in New Delhi. He admitted that black money had come back into the banking system, but said that tax officials were combing through people’s accounts to identify and tax it. >He said: “The fact that money has got into the banking system does not mean that it is all now legitimate . . . The money got identified with the owner whom…

Question is, was it worth it? Weren't there easier ways to increase Digital payments? Better ways to make people put money into banks? Was it worth killing people? http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/11/17/day-9-demonetisation...

Was it worth extending the status quo where around 1 percent of the population pays any tax at all because of the rampant black market economy? (12.5 million people paid any tax at all on a population of 1.23 billion, source - https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/03/guess-how-many-people-pay-ta...).

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#39

Post by i2shar » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

rm2889 wrote: post #12

ramshanker wrote: post #6

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path…

I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded?…

> I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc).

Depending on who you ask, Governments will always be undeserving of your tax money. Also, I'd rather prefer my tax money be spent on farm loan waivers than be stashed away hidden from the Government under a carpet or in a foreign bank, if that's the comparison you want.

> Finally, there are a lot of disadvantages for being on a completely centralized digital payment platform from an individual liberty point of view. Imagine that a significant portion of your net worth is just a number stored in a "secure database" which falls under the jurisdiction of some government. Now image that you vocally disagree with the government's policies enough for the government to start taking notice. It becomes very very easy for the government to shut you up - all they have to do is strongarm the bank to freeze that number. Its not as hypothetical as it sounds as the Indian government has done this before.

Are you suggesting that you should keep significant amounts of your money hidden from the Government because you think they might unduly target you because of your wealth and views? Isn't that how black money is defined in the first place - keeping it hidden from the Government? That is a civil liberties issue, the solution for which cannot be to keep your money hidden from the Government.

> A large portion of black money was deemed to be held up by the bureaucracy - bribes paid by private individuals and corporations to government employees and politicians. Had demonetization been done along with a hiring freeze (and subsequent trimming down) of the bureaucracy, I'd have been more certain that the motives behind demonetization were to root out corruption. However, the bureaucracy is now larger and more powerful than ever under this government. Thus, the incentives to seek bribes still exits because of this power imbalance between the powerful bureaucrats and relatively week individuals.

I don't see the connection between a hiring freeze in bureaucracy and demonetization. Bureaucrats are a fraction of the population of the country and tackling corruption in bureaucracy is something that must be done regardless.

Re: India demonetisation fails to purge black money

#40

Post by snambi » Thu, Aug 31, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

vthallam wrote: post #20

>Arun Jaitley, finance minister, on Thursday defended the demonetisation at a conference in New Delhi. He admitted that black money had come back into the banking system, but said that tax officials were combing through people’s accounts to identify and tax it. >He said: “The fact that money has got into the banking system does not mean that it is all now legitimate . . . The money got identified with the owner whom…

Recently I heard that a guy owned 100 trucks is selling his house for quite a low price. Probably lost a chunk of stashed black money. Well, this seems like the effect of demonetization. This is great. The thieves do deserve this.