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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#31

Post by devrandomguy »

9t3h4r3o5w1a4w2 wrote: post #18
robotresearcher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is getting some great talent right now. Americans, Brits, and people who would have gone to the US or UK are coming here. If we can keep them here, this will be a big boost for Canada long term.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

When the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money.

We don't have to pay as well, someone else will always be willing to ravage their own country to beat us at that game. We just have to not screw up the local society and environment as badly as the superpowers.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#32

Post by SubiculumCode »

stevenwoo wrote: post #28
SubiculumCode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I can't get a research position in the States, but can in Europe, that is a problem.

How does the job market for research positions and potential employee pool in the States versus Europe compare?

I don't know the job market there. I was stating a hypothetical; I should have made that clearer. Given the post-doc situation, if another country were to dramtically increase funding for positions, America would see a brain drain.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#33

Post by [deleted] »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#35

Post by vostok »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #27
9t3h4r3o5w1a4w2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

If there was money then why are there not enough research positions open?

I don't think this is a productive game to play.

If there's not enough money then why is academic pay better in the US than almost anywhere in the developed world?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#36

Post by rdtsc »

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China.

Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teaching positions and not enough Googles or Teslas or other companies needing that many employees with such advanced degrees.

He mentions it's Trump's fault. Let's criticize Trump but not sure if attaching it to this particular case makes it productive. I think they meant this H1-B overhaul

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/18/524569185/trumps-latest-execut...

Another Axios reporter seems to think the update to H1-B overhaul is mainly targeted at abuse by India-based staffing companies like Tata, Wipro and HCL

https://www.axios.com/changing-h-1b-rules-computer-programme...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#37

Post by CorvusCrypto »

holydude wrote: post #21
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. However since I'm in tech I also get free choice essentially. We in this industry have it pretty lucky in that our skills are easily transferable across borders.

I am an American that found peace and happiness in Europe however because I am American you are right to say I'm biased. You don't live in a place all your life and not notice the negatives more.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#38

Post by bauerd »

derping69 wrote: post #17
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

>US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere.

You really think that? I mean come on

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#39

Post by stillhere »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #7
Spooky23 wrote: post #3

The academic brain drain starts in middle school. Why are we pushing US kids into bankruptcy and importing brains who come with dollars?

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I think everything America needs to succeed and grow can be found right here in America. The problem is that it's sometimes cheaper to import foreign labor, or export domestic production.

We did it during the moon landing so I agree with you. The opinion that we must bring in foreign workers to survive is just silly. It's not that I think we shouldn't import them, but we should have very high restrictions on the company to prove that there is not a single US worker who can do the same job.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#40

Post by eighthnate »

That's funny. Everyone I know in academia, from CS to Philosophy to Biology, is complaining there is a glut of "academics". They had PhDs but they can't positions in labs or get assistant professors to get on track for tenure because there are so many PhDs in academia.

Maybe a brain drain is something the US needs. An oversupply of "brains" isn't a good thing. We need a balance.

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