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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#31

Post by closeparen »

javajosh wrote: post #16
balance_factor wrote: post #8

> polarization What polarization is there in Washington? Or outside the beltway? What are the two poles? How people feel about transexuals? I don't see any polarization. The two parties are close together on almost everything. As the real differences fade, unimportant differences must be heightened. Trump is of that type - he makes a big show, but on what big issue in which he can get anywhere is he substantially far…

>What polarization is there in Washington? Or outside the beltway? What are the two poles? The polarization is between those who prefer authoritarian leadership, and those who don't. The poles are defined primarily by personality.

Bullshit. There's polarization between whether the authoritarian crackdown should primarily police business/capital, or people with the wrong identities, or more concerningly, both.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#32

Post by coop-throwaway »

RickS wrote: post #24
coop-throwaway wrote: post #20

The dating market for men has become extremely difficult over the last few years (lots of factors for that), more and more men are unable to find a mate. Men are less inviting of other men from my observation as they are in deep competition with each other -- why risk having another man around when he might take your girl or reduce your chances? Apps, dating sites, clubs, and events are filled with men looking for wo…

There's a lot to unpack in that comment, and I'm not going to take a swing at much of it, except to say that you should be careful of confusing visibility with reality. Both the haves and the have nots are equipped with increasingly large megaphones (instagram, et al). Most people are regular, and guys have been "taking" other guy's girls since we were beating each other with sticks. The idea that this phenomenon is…

Never before could a woman open an app and literally have hundreds of men at her door within minutes (all while men struggle to get a single match). This has created such an imbalance that the women are able to reject roughly the bottom 80% of men leaving most men struggling to get the attention of the bottom 20% of women.

And yes, there are lots of men with shortcomings, physical ones, that have rendered them out of the modern dating pool whereas in the past they would have met an equivalent woman. That's no longer the case as that equivalent woman can demand a much higher quality man -- there's an unlimited supply of men to pick from.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#33

Post by PoachedSausage »

acslater00 wrote: post #27
PoachedSausage wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we're a bit more varied here in the UK and this is anecdata but I'm a member of a running club that has at one end of the spectrum members of the Conservative party through to anarcho-vegans.

Yeah - sure I'm not literally saying that all clubs are full of people with identical politics. I'm just pointing out that most communities in America are actually not that diverse or polarized.

To be fair, the dynamic range in incomes probably is isn't that great and it's in a large multi-cultural city.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#34

Post by Animats »

PoachedSausage wrote: post #29
kevinnk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of clubs/community orgs are like this. The community soccer org for the city I grew up in had lots of turnover in the management due to voting.

The best sports and social clubs I've been a member of generally try to avoid too many political games although they are nominally democratic. Club politics is generally tiresome, few people join a tennis club or hackerspace to play politics, they want to play tennis or make things.

"The trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings." -Wilde

That's the problem with democracy. It's hard work.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#35

Post by tardygrad »

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it.

This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: ossification through too much discipline and reverence for tradition, on the one hand; and on the other hand, dissolution, or subjection to foreign conquest, through the growth of individualism and personal experience that makes cooperation impossible."

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#36

Post by CaptainSwing »

Animats wrote: post #34
PoachedSausage wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best sports and social clubs I've been a member of generally try to avoid too many political games although they are nominally democratic. Club politics is generally tiresome, few people join a tennis club or hackerspace to play politics, they want to play tennis or make things.

"The trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings." -Wilde That's the problem with democracy. It's hard work.

Important to remember that, despite jokes like these, Oscar Wilde remained a committed (if ideosyncratic) libertarian socialist.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#37

Post by cperciva »

Animats wrote: post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically?

Yes. I belong to a university, the academic governance of which rests in the Senate. True, it's not a completely elected body -- almost 1/4 of its members are administrators holding ex officio seats -- but over 3/4 of the Senate is elected by Faculty, Students, and Convocation.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#38

Post by Camillo »

Animats wrote: post #9

Here's a question. Do you belong to any organization which chooses its leaders democratically? That is, you get to vote, there's more than one candidate, and the incumbents and their designated successors sometimes get kicked out? Do you belong to any organization which has member meetings in which members can vote and make decisions binding on the organization?

No. The only organization I belong to is my employer.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#39

Post by RickS »

coop-throwaway wrote: post #32
RickS wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to unpack in that comment, and I'm not going to take a swing at much of it, except to say that you should be careful of confusing visibility with reality. Both the haves and the have nots are equipped with increasingly large megaphones (instagram, et al). Most people are regular, and guys have been "taking" other guy's girls since we were beating each other with sticks. The idea that this phenomenon is…

Never before could a woman open an app and literally have hundreds of men at her door within minutes (all while men struggle to get a single match). This has created such an imbalance that the women are able to reject roughly the bottom 80% of men leaving most men struggling to get the attention of the bottom 20% of women. And yes, there are lots of men with shortcomings, physical ones, that have rendered them out of…

I'm going to venture a guess that you spend a lot of time on r/incels. I'm going to further guess that you're using a throwaway because somewhere in your mind, you realize that what you're saying is cranky, entitled, and doesn't hold water.

I won't reply after this. Sorry you feel cheated by the world.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#40

Post by Spooky23 »

ams6110 wrote: post #30
kevinnk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of clubs/community orgs are like this. The community soccer org for the city I grew up in had lots of turnover in the management due to voting.

In my experience (have served in a few of these) it's hard enough to find one person willing serve in each organizational position. Contested elections are almost never seen.

It depends on the place.

Where I live the Little League is like the farm team for the local democratic machinery.

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