Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bay Area as a City State

sfgate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–38 of 38 posts

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#31

Post by meric »

sstrudeau wrote: post #24

This reminds me of one of my unexpected favorite reads: Jane Jacob's "Cities & the Wealth of Nations" http://www.amazon.com/Cities-Wealth-Nations-Jane-Jacobs/dp/0... She argues that cities (more specifically, city-regions) are the most fundamental economic unit, and many of the problems that national economies encounter are a result of an imbalance created by tying together multiple city-region economies; and tying t…

An observant reader (or someone who lived in singapore or hong kong) would note that both Singapore and Hong Kong do not have true democratic governments.

Hong Kong currently has a parliament that is only one third elected by the people, one third elected by the government itself and one third elected by special interest groups. The executive (the head of state) is elected by 800 people representing private citizens and special interest groups. In practice however, these 800 people are all selected by the government itself. As a result, each year you see the same billionaires in the 800 group, always electing the candidate who has shaken the most hands with the PRC government.

There are a multitude of economic consequences as a result of this. Policies left over from decades ago include fixed electricity pricing, price floor on bus tickets, supermarket duopolies, tunnel operator monopolies, misplaced housing estates, local shopping center monopolies, are some problems the government is not willing to deal with. (Why would they, to lose support among 33% of voters who also happen to be most economically well-off and to be accused of "economic interference"?) These are all things that exacerbates income inequality. Income inequality is increasing not because the highest income people are producing more but because they're earning more from the inefficient market and political system geared towards them.

Everyone thinks Hong Kong has like the best economic system ever, but I'd like to point out that they don't.

Of course, things I've said here are very political and you might get different responses depending on who you're talking to...

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#32

Post by davidw »

russell wrote: post #9
davidw wrote: post #5

If I were in charge of California, an independent Bay Area would be paying through the nose for water.

Residential users use about 10% of the water, last time I looked. Larger users are alpha, hay, and rice. So if we ban growing rice in the desert, we will have plenty for the people. CA rice is probably for export, because it is the shor grain variety, not the long grain that most of us eat.

10% of which water? My guess is in the 'bay area city state', which doesn't include a great deal of agricultural land, that figure is much higher.

And since California, minus the BACS is going to be that much more rural, it's going to tilt just a little bit in favor of those users.

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#33

Post by delackner »

meric wrote: post #31
sstrudeau wrote: post #24

This reminds me of one of my unexpected favorite reads: Jane Jacob's "Cities & the Wealth of Nations" http://www.amazon.com/Cities-Wealth-Nations-Jane-Jacobs/dp/0... She argues that cities (more specifically, city-regions) are the most fundamental economic unit, and many of the problems that national economies encounter are a result of an imbalance created by tying together multiple city-region economies; and tying t…

An observant reader (or someone who lived in singapore or hong kong) would note that both Singapore and Hong Kong do not have true democratic governments. Hong Kong currently has a parliament that is only one third elected by the people, one third elected by the government itself and one third elected by special interest groups. The executive (the head of state) is elected by 800 people representing private citizens…

I am not saying that the examples you cite are not problems, but would you prefer great income inequality in which the lowest-earners make X and the highest earners say 10X, or a very homogenous society in which the lowest earners earn 0.1X and the highest earners barely make X?

Income inequality is not a simple yes or no choice.

[edited: brevity]

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#35

Post by troels »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #12

Of course a bay area city state would vote to spend no money on the military industrial complex, and then an orange county city state would invade and conquer them.

Is military funded on a per-state basis in US? I would expect that to be a federal matter?

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#36

Post by Gormo »

meric wrote: post #31
sstrudeau wrote: post #24

This reminds me of one of my unexpected favorite reads: Jane Jacob's "Cities & the Wealth of Nations" http://www.amazon.com/Cities-Wealth-Nations-Jane-Jacobs/dp/0... She argues that cities (more specifically, city-regions) are the most fundamental economic unit, and many of the problems that national economies encounter are a result of an imbalance created by tying together multiple city-region economies; and tying t…

An observant reader (or someone who lived in singapore or hong kong) would note that both Singapore and Hong Kong do not have true democratic governments. Hong Kong currently has a parliament that is only one third elected by the people, one third elected by the government itself and one third elected by special interest groups. The executive (the head of state) is elected by 800 people representing private citizens…

I didn't know that re Hong Kong's government.

The makeup of their government sounds a lot like the classical mixed republic, with elements of democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy combined into a single set of institutions.

Historically, the states that had this structure tended to encourage some of the most stable and prosperous societies, e.g. the Roman Republic and early modern England.

If Hong Kong is really organized like this, it's not surprising that they have such a strong economy. I suppose how long it will last depends on how long the PRC will maintain their hands-off policy and how long Hong Kong itself can stave off internal pressure to change their constitution to favor one faction or another.

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#37

Post by Gormo »

inanimate wrote: post #17
tmsh wrote: post #10

Google is incorporated in Delaware. Apple (through Braeburn Capital since the mid-2000s) manages most of its assets in Nevada. They're not paying state corporate income taxes to anyone, let alone California. Perhaps they're not using any of the services that California state taxes provide. But it's sort of a complicated argument. The state has a long history. Perhaps this article is a good way to break the deadlock.…

I have always thought that there is a reason (or can be, depending). When the capital city is also the largest city, the rest of the state can often be ignored (a complaint from many about Boston, for example). If the capital is outside of the major cities then the government can better focus on the state as a whole without getting involved in local politics (think Albany vs New York City). Also, often capitals are m…

If there's a significant economic, cultural, and political divergence between a city and the rest of its state, there's also a strong argument to separate the cities off as autonomous city-states.

If people in upstate NY and NYC have conflicting interests, wouldn't it be better for both parties to separate NYC as as state in its own right, rather than maintain the compromise solution of Albany?

Re: Bay Area as a City State

#38

Post by Gormo »

russell wrote: post #9
davidw wrote: post #5

If I were in charge of California, an independent Bay Area would be paying through the nose for water.

Residential users use about 10% of the water, last time I looked. Larger users are alpha, hay, and rice. So if we ban growing rice in the desert, we will have plenty for the people. CA rice is probably for export, because it is the shor grain variety, not the long grain that most of us eat.

Why ban specific uses instead of just charging appropriate prices for water?
Post reply on HN