Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing • Hacker News Board

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#31

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

HelloMcFly wrote: post #19

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

This is a hard question. For me there are a couple of thoughts in my head that are not yet fully formed into a single, coherent philosophy: 1. If you're advocating for the systematic oppression of others based on characteristics they were born with (vs. actions they've taken), then I support efforts to remove your veil of anonymity that allows the rest of the world to engage with personally you based on your known be…

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. You have as good a position as any, and similar to where I think I am.

The one thorn I have is defining "violence" in the modern age. Specifically in situations of disparite anonymity.

More and more, I'm tempted to classify "dox'd by anonymous strangers on the internet" as violence against an individual. Something like "gross violation of reasonable expectation of normalcy."

Hypothetically, I attend a white supremacy rally. I'm photographed there. Two different situations occur after.

Situation 1) A neighbor recognizes me on the local news. I receive shunning in my community based on those who disagree with my beliefs.

Situation 2) The internet posts a picture of me (let's say through random chance vs others) and decides that I'm the face of racism. Campaigns are organized to disrupt my life as much as possible.

Even though non-physical... there's sometime disproportionate about 1,000 strangers working to ruin one person's life. Especially as more and more of our lives are trivially influenced via automated and invisible information systems.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#32

Post by grb423 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:01 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #27

grb423 wrote: post #24

People are sick and tired of anti-white (pro-nonwhite) de jure policies and replacement immigration. They feel this country is their rightful homeland and are angry that they had no vote in being replaced. These reactions could have been predicted and were. I guess you can call that "racist" and "white supremacist" but the name-calling just eggs them on and is "not an argument." Instead, let's explain why the white e…

WTF is this argument? Where is the replacement happening? A Mexican sneaks across the border and now does my gardening. Who did he replace? How is the era of Athens over, because a brown person is allowed to attend my University and learn about Plato and Socrates while sitting next to me?

They see the drip-drip-drip of "brown" people unfurling the Mexican flag, municipal swimming pools with men-only hours and University foot baths.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miriam-rosenbaum/womens-only-s...

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/muslim-footbaths-threaten...

http://www.newsweek.com/white-nationalists-are-right-america...

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#33

Post by s73ver_ » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #25

s73ver_ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one, take a look at what they're advocating. White supremacists advocate for genocide, for slavery. "Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them?" For me, while I don't participate in doxxing and such, I can't be upset at what's happening to these people. For one, they've been doi…

But Nazis are not just a hair in the food of democracy. They are at least, like a bug that crawled onto your burger. Maybe not all the way to cockroach but, unquestionably at least a scary spider.

Yeah, I think I like that better. Although I may put spider as worse than cockroach.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#34

Post by s73ver_ » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #31

HelloMcFly wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a hard question. For me there are a couple of thoughts in my head that are not yet fully formed into a single, coherent philosophy: 1. If you're advocating for the systematic oppression of others based on characteristics they were born with (vs. actions they've taken), then I support efforts to remove your veil of anonymity that allows the rest of the world to engage with personally you based on your known be…

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. You have as good a position as any, and similar to where I think I am. The one thorn I have is defining "violence" in the modern age. Specifically in situations of disparite anonymity. More and more, I'm tempted to classify "dox'd by anonymous strangers on the internet" as violence against an individual. Something like "gross violation of reasonable expectation of nor…

At the same time, aren't "you as the white supremacist" working to ruin the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of strangers?

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#35

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #17

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

I personally believe people should be allowed to say whatever they want, and violence is never acceptable as a response. We've been preventing hate groups from having a platform for decades, and recent events are only giving them one. It is law enforcement's job to enforce any laws that are broken by actions of individuals , within these groups or otherwise, and the justice system's job to prosecute them to the exten…

At one point I would have agreed 100% with you, but I think throughout history there's always been a tension whereby tolerant and democratic societies somewhat repress speech that's antithetical to their existence.

Imho, this is a good thing.

Some ideas are too virulent to be fought fairly and will dominate without work in the shadows to resist them. Aka "if you eschew a strictly dominating strategy for moral reasons, and your opponent doesn't, they will win."

So I think there's certainly a back and forth. Neo-Nazi's (or Democrats, or Republicans) shouldn't be allowed to visit public grade schools and indoctrinate children, but they do deserve free speech.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#36

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

concede_pluto wrote: post #30

liberte82 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hanged Nazis after WW2. Do you believe this was the appropriate action?

We hanged proven murderers, not every member of an odious political party.

We didn't hang proven murderers on our side.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#37

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:15 PM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #34

ethbro wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. You have as good a position as any, and similar to where I think I am. The one thorn I have is defining "violence" in the modern age. Specifically in situations of disparite anonymity. More and more, I'm tempted to classify "dox'd by anonymous strangers on the internet" as violence against an individual. Something like "gross violation of reasonable expectation of nor…

At the same time, aren't "you as the white supremacist" working to ruin the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of strangers?

Good point! So maybe the moral calculus comes from a weighing of both sides ultimately effected.

It certainly seems more just when looked at that way vs random meme person the internet fixates on.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#38

Post by ethbro » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #22

ethbro wrote: post #2

Aside from the obvious everything that's troubling about the rise of white supremacist organizations, another question has been bothering me. Where's the line on what terrible things are morally just to do to terrible people? And what must those terrible people do to morally justify the actions taken against them? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" , etc. free speech i…

Who is calling for "anything"? I've recently seen Republican presidential hopefuls talking about nuking an entire region to deal with terrorists, killing their families, torturing them, even if not effective, because they deserve it etc. I've not heard anything worse than "it's okay to punch Nazis" or "the death penalty should apply for this murder" about these particular terrorists. (Neither of which I particularly…

I haven't heard anything overt bubble up in popular discourse yet, but some of those verbally attacking fascists on news don't fill me with confidence that if "fascists are subhuman scum" were an accepted social narrative they would restrain themselves.

The discourse seems to be drifting more towards "Well, we all know what they are like, so we have to do whatever it takes to oppose them" on both sides day by day.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#39

Post by s73ver_ » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:21 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #37

s73ver_ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, aren't "you as the white supremacist" working to ruin the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of strangers?

Good point! So maybe the moral calculus comes from a weighing of both sides ultimately effected. It certainly seems more just when looked at that way vs random meme person the internet fixates on.

To be perfectly honest, I tend not to think of it too much because of that. I'm not going to partake in mass doxxing efforts, but I'm also not going to be upset when these people are shunned, or companies choose not to do business with them. There may be some ethics/morality questions that can be raised, but I believe those are more effectively raised when one of the sides isn't openly advocating for the things White Supremacists are advocating for. I don't really believe in the slippery slope argument being presented; if these things happen to a group with more moral nuance, the discussion can still happen then.

Re: Internet turns on white supremacists and neo-Nazis with doxing, phishing

#40

Post by HelloMcFly » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 6:22 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #31

HelloMcFly wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a hard question. For me there are a couple of thoughts in my head that are not yet fully formed into a single, coherent philosophy: 1. If you're advocating for the systematic oppression of others based on characteristics they were born with (vs. actions they've taken), then I support efforts to remove your veil of anonymity that allows the rest of the world to engage with personally you based on your known be…

Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. You have as good a position as any, and similar to where I think I am. The one thorn I have is defining "violence" in the modern age. Specifically in situations of disparite anonymity. More and more, I'm tempted to classify "dox'd by anonymous strangers on the internet" as violence against an individual. Something like "gross violation of reasonable expectation of nor…

I think by actively and publicly working towards the oppression of others, one sacrifices a reasonable expectation to being treated respectfully. By publicly seeking to undermine the equality of others and ensure their living experience in society is "lesser than", you've implicitly invited reciprocation. It may seem disproportionate for 1000 people to work against you, but it's also disproportionate that you are working against all 1000 of them.

Hypothetically-speaking, of course. And obviously the risk of false positives is troublesome.