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Stop tech-driven problem-solving

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Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#31

Post by icebraining »

jasode wrote: post #24
icebraining wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His complaint isn't against the Blockchain or Hadoop, but against the people proposing their use for its own sake, without concern about whether it actually provides benefits. He specifically says that virtual currencies themselves are a valid reason to use the Blockchain.

>His complaint isn't against the Blockchain or Hadoop, but [...] whether it actually provides benefits. For his blockchain example, I couldn't find his Dutch handicap parking story via Google for more details so I don't know if a traditional central database would solve the same exact problem . I'm saying that virtually all dismissals of a blockchain in favor of central databases almost always removes the benefits of…

Besides shandor's point, the Blockchain didn't invent decentralized data sharing. I, along with every developer of accounting systems in my country, was writing hash-chained ledgers before the Bitcoin paper was even published.

The innovation brought by the Blockchain was using a proof-of-work to achieve consensus and avoid double-spending in a network of semi-anonymous peers.

The vast majority of proposed uses of the Blockchain for non-currency reasons that I've seen do not suffer from this problem, and therefore do not need the innovation brought by it.

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#32

Post by virmundi »

anovikov wrote: post #18

Big data: they nailed it! Every single application of 'big data' i ever saw was hype-driven, and much easier solved by boring, traditional things that were there in K&R era already: hash maps, Berkeley DB, and memory-mapped files. Sometimes taking 100x less resources, like literally doing on a single computer what took a huge Hadoop cluster. Maybe on a Google scale of data, that doesn't work as easily. Maybe when you…

I used Hadoop well on an important fraud system. When we first deployed, we only dealt with 59 GB at rest worth of data per day. What I knew would occur is more models would run over the data with each release. I assumed that the models would become more complex over time. They would eventually need to perform calculations overs years worth of data.

Hadoop provided a data-centric approach to parallel computing. Using Cascading, a high level pipe/filter library for Hadoop, we could make complex, locally testable models. Using eventing we could plug those models into a self-managing workflow. Adding a new model meant starting a JVM for that model that hooked into the event system and ran Hadoop jobs as needed. If any one model failed, we could rerun it without affecting the rest of the system.

This scaled to 60 some odd fraud models that looked over up to 5 years worth of data (5 TB). Some were quick since they only looked at a day's worth of data. Some took several hours. In the end, Hadoop made the entire process easier to handle mentally, testable, and scalable.

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#33

Post by le-mark »

bitwize wrote: post #20

Funnily enough, microcomputers themselves were once the technology solution in search of a problem. The "home computer" fad of the 80s promised lots of applications that didn't quite pan out, including finance, "helping kids with the homework", "the little lady can store her recipes", and home automation. The only ones that really panned out were games (including edutainment), spreadsheets, word processing, and maybe…

>> the little lady can store her recipes

That's a great perspective, and I'm really glad you mentioned this in particular. It's one of those things that was so often repeated, and I always found it to be really bizarre. Recipes? Really?

I'd add music synth to your list of real world uses, in some sense that was a killer app for microprocessors.

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#34

Post by jasode »

icebraining wrote: post #31
jasode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>His complaint isn't against the Blockchain or Hadoop, but [...] whether it actually provides benefits. For his blockchain example, I couldn't find his Dutch handicap parking story via Google for more details so I don't know if a traditional central database would solve the same exact problem . I'm saying that virtually all dismissals of a blockchain in favor of central databases almost always removes the benefits of…

Besides shandor's point, the Blockchain didn't invent decentralized data sharing. I, along with every developer of accounting systems in my country, was writing hash-chained ledgers before the Bitcoin paper was even published. The innovation brought by the Blockchain was using a proof-of-work to achieve consensus and avoid double-spending in a network of semi-anonymous peers. The vast majority of proposed uses of the…

>The vast majority of proposed uses of the Blockchain for non-currency reasons that I've seen do not suffer from this problem, and therefore do not need the innovation brought by it.

Then we've been exposed to different examples. I've not seen any non-trivial proposed uses for distributed consensus blockchain that can be exactly replaced by a central db. Replacement always involves relaxing a constraint (e.g. trust the centralized organization not to tamper, etc).

shandor's point can be generalized to "solutions looking for a problem" which I already agreed with. Where I differ is based on the actual debates on the serious uses of blockchain I've seen, I don't see that technology abuse as the overwhelming situation.

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#35

Post by icebraining »

jasode wrote: post #34
icebraining wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides shandor's point, the Blockchain didn't invent decentralized data sharing. I, along with every developer of accounting systems in my country, was writing hash-chained ledgers before the Bitcoin paper was even published. The innovation brought by the Blockchain was using a proof-of-work to achieve consensus and avoid double-spending in a network of semi-anonymous peers. The vast majority of proposed uses of the…

>The vast majority of proposed uses of the Blockchain for non-currency reasons that I've seen do not suffer from this problem, and therefore do not need the innovation brought by it. Then we've been exposed to different examples. I've not seen any non-trivial proposed uses for distributed consensus blockchain that can be exactly replaced by a central db. Replacement always involves relaxing a constraint (e.g. trust t…

Again, you keep pushing the false dichotomy of "blockchain vs centralized". Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain!

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#36

Post by virmundi »

jesperlang wrote: post #25

I think the author has an interesting direction but don't quite like the examples.. Taking a step back and looking at it more generally I see this as problem solving vs problem finding (in Alan Kay's words), where a perfect example would be the hype with self driving cars and high speed car tunnels. This is problem solving (traffic jams, car accidents, "I need to get there faster"). Whereas problem finding will ask t…

Keep expanding your problem field. How do you create a car free society? I live in Palatka, FL. A small town that's great for tech since housing is low cost and we have reasonably fast Internet to facilitate remote work or cloud based solution development. But to get anything other than food, I have to travel at least 45 minutes to St Augustine unless I purchase online. This means I need a car.

For example, I have 12 5/4 cedar boards in my wife's car for storm window frames. I had to drive her Vibe to Jacksonville, which is an hour drive one way. No one around here sells cedar, let alone in 5/4 width. I can't get that delivered. Even if I wanted to, I need to pick the boards since I have aesthetic requirements.

How do we solve the small town problem?

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#37

Post by jasode »

icebraining wrote: post #35
jasode wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The vast majority of proposed uses of the Blockchain for non-currency reasons that I've seen do not suffer from this problem, and therefore do not need the innovation brought by it. Then we've been exposed to different examples. I've not seen any non-trivial proposed uses for distributed consensus blockchain that can be exactly replaced by a central db. Replacement always involves relaxing a constraint (e.g. trust t…

Again, you keep pushing the false dichotomy of "blockchain vs centralized". Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain!

>Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain!

But I'm not talking about any distributed data sharing such as p2p bittorrent with hash verification, or git/github, or NNTP Usenet, or the distributed accounting system you worked on, etc. For purposes of this thread, "blockchain" is synonymous with decentralized trust which I believe is how it's usually used.

I can agree that blockchain didn't invent "decentralized data sharing" but that's not relevant to my point.

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#38

Post by [deleted] »

jasode wrote: post #37
icebraining wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you keep pushing the false dichotomy of "blockchain vs centralized". Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain!

>Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain! But I'm not talking about any distributed data sharing such as p2p bittorrent with hash verification, or git/github, or NNTP Usenet, or the distributed accounting system you worked on, etc. For purposes of this thread, "blockchain" is synonymous with decentralized trust which I believe is how it's usually used. I can agree that blockchain didn't…

[deleted]

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#39

Post by icebraining »

jasode wrote: post #37
icebraining wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you keep pushing the false dichotomy of "blockchain vs centralized". Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain!

>Distributed and verifiable data sharing existed before the Blockchain! But I'm not talking about any distributed data sharing such as p2p bittorrent with hash verification, or git/github, or NNTP Usenet, or the distributed accounting system you worked on, etc. For purposes of this thread, "blockchain" is synonymous with decentralized trust which I believe is how it's usually used. I can agree that blockchain didn't…

Can you define "decentralized trust"?

Re: Stop tech-driven problem-solving

#40

Post by _lex »

This article makes a ton of sense for people in smaller companies that aren't worried about rapidly shifting markets and the long time-to-delivery of new functionality that is made possible by technology. He's effectively arguing "why build android when j2me already exists". The problem is that when the iphone comes out, you want something you can quickly retool into a competitive product - otherwise you might get killed by the movement of the market itself. See blackberry & windows mobile for what happens when you're too late to the game.

Now, you could argue that it makes more sense to try to make the iPhone instead of a me-too system like android originally was. But most companies aren't apple of 2005, and they know it. They know they aren't really leading in anything - they just don't want to be left in the dust. So they ask their tech teams to investigate stuff that might be transformational, like the blockchain, because if it did create a new green field, they want to have access to the new market and at least near-first mover advantage.

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