Live data from Hacker News

1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

techcrunch.com

31–40 of 55 posts

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#31
post #13

"They’ll develop their business model over time". That would be a little scary to me as an investor.

What i think is scary is the idea subscribers / users might actually rely on such a service 100%.

Or is it more scary to tell your customers, from whom you've not yet worked out how to ask for money, which presumably is essential, that maybe before they send in their most valued pictures that they should run a rigourour local backup regimen? Like they'd enjoy that!

Even more scary yet is the potential for this to be a bait and switch. First you upload your treasured family stuff, then the company, for whatever reason, runs out of money to "develop their business model" or changes control or management, and then they send you a bill to "upgrade" your service to keep your records intact, same time as sentient customers realise by that time there's not been enough reinvestment to actually place any kind of measurable guarantee as to the integrity of your data.

"Please send me the things you most care for, all your precious family stuff. Don't worry, i'll work out a way of making money out of you later!"

That's what i hear.

Meanwhile, optical "rusts", drive controllers fail, popular FSs do nothing to prevent corruption even on simple copy functions (NTFS, looking at you, but you're not alone) and consumer spec HDDs are doing duty cycles more like enterprise array components did a short while back, as machines get used increasingly 24/7 by family members, for streaming vids, for all the stuff many individuals rely on to keep their present social life intact, let alone their legacy family life preserved.

I'm not wholly against TechCrunch, it is useful to have all the startup hopefuls in one place for reference. But with the readership they have, and not even one cursory mention of the pitfalls which are well known to anyone professionally touched by the storage industry, is a travesty. Their advertising revenue is no - doubt robust as a consequence.

I keep reminding myself, that despite Google's history as a bait and switch (from "no advertising" to biggest ad agency in their economy) the most significant thing they've done is make the general public aware of the value in archive, in scanned works, out of copyright works, and even - allowing this is hugely contentious - in the value of capturing storing and promoting "abandoned" works, the value of which no-one likely knows. I've strong reservations as to Google's approach. But if you read William Patry, their counsel for copyright, you couldn't find a more lucid general, philosophical approach to why what they do is not against the spirit of copyright law. (which views i believe he held before he joined Google) . Oops, touching on a huge subject, but my private view is that because Google can do this, whether they effectively monetise it or not, they are alerting a vast cross-section of the population to the idea there's value in old works, scanning, digital preservation. Having run a "ancient work" preservation project more than a decade ago, which flunked as budget was really beyond a small outfit who had to turn income more directly, and the quality ambition was high even by current expectations, the thing which bugged me was the number of people who suggested the effort was futile, of no particular value. Now, of course, i get told how such projects are futile because Google will just do them, but there's more art to preservation than they are generally doing - they showed the mass route and network effects can be done. Some of the stuff i was involved in capturing simply isn't even in national libraries. Not bitter or anything, in fact just jealous i'd not been born a decade or two later to enjoy all of this when i was in education, thinking i'd not have dropped out had i been able to do so much research so readily i'd have quickly understood my interests the better :)

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#32
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would the fact that they have (sensible) ethical issues about extracting money from grieving relatives.

As an investor, I like that. I think this is a business where it's a real competitive advantage not to be jerks.

Sure, but i'd rather know how that's codified into business rules and policies. I try to do that for my own company. People change, staff moves, even if infrequently, you get a new CEO . . . qualifying this as a personal trait isn't much substance in my book. It's not concrete, even if it's an honorable intention. Sorry, but i don't see how you hinge a business plan on merely an intention to play nice. Google codified their original intent roughly as not doing crappy flashy adverts, so that's a tangible. But some processes are never immediately visible to customers, and how you you apply attitude as a criteria to that? If you run a shop which prides itself on exceptional behaviour (distinct from a market around you where you see values are a real reason hindering growth) is it not reassuring to try at leat to find some measurables? One might manage a lot of this in interview for new hires, or you might insist on a certain policy regards customer support, such as never giving a stonewall answer per a policy but giving your reps the power to look into a problem. What i'm suggestig is you can do wonders with company culture if you nurture it like a first born, but are there not times when this can be checked against behaviour more thoroughly? I'm thinking about the number of times my cellular reps promise me, voice and in writing, they'll fix a billing glitch, and not once have they come through. That's possibly measurable, as an example. As in "why does customer x contact us so much?"

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#33
post #17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks really nice. Small comment: On the main page for a memorial, when the box pops up asking if I know the person, it says "show your support". I found that phrasing a little odd, less heartfelt than I'd expect. I'd change it to 'show your love'.

"Love" might be a little too strong for people who were only marginally connected to the deceased.

Show your caring?

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#34
post #13

"They’ll develop their business model over time". That would be a little scary to me as an investor.

I've no idea as to why my longer comment above was modded down. Was merely a discussion as to real risks in data storage of emotional value, some bits personal, some technical in aspect.

I think it's fair to be skeptical of new companies offering long term services. I wasn't bashing the company who is subject of this discussion. I was merely saying that the scary bit is not just i you're an investor but possibly also as a customer. Anyone recently read a SEC filing of their bank / thrift / life policy company? My most important thought regards this discussion is that there are ways you can communicate the stability of your company to customers who wish to rely on it over long periods of time. One way i imagine not to do that well, is to point out you've no business model. That's not quite the same as a "caveat emptor" warning. In fact the lack of plan, or general presentation of te service, has obviously been taken to be altruistic by some observers who have commented here. No problem with that, it's a cool idea, but try it differently, would you buy archive length storage from me, even for good money, if i said i'd no idea how to break even? Or is it okay only if it's free, which presumably it cannot be later on? How would you make this break even?

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#35
post #18

I like Gary Vaderchuck's take on this: everything we do today will be recorded for the benefits of our grandkids. Soon enough, this will be essentially non-optional. Act accordingly. This is a sea change in just the last few years, too -- I lost everything I wrote in college with the exception of one paper, but now with Dropbox I'm likely to never lose anything I create ever again. In a few decades I'll probably need…

Your last sentence. There's a million dollars there.

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#36
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would the fact that they have (sensible) ethical issues about extracting money from grieving relatives.

As an investor, I like that. I think this is a business where it's a real competitive advantage not to be jerks.

Ok, i get it now. Positive Mental Attitude!

I'm thinking there's comment management going on here. Why not engage me? But read me through either way, if you can stomach it. Rebuttal of any of my points should not be hard, i don't imagine what i've said in this discussion is so watertight that a good explanation of well turned out long considered goals, will not make the contrary point. I am curious as to why a downmodded critique of an possibly affiliated company would be good PR on. I don't take it that way though, nothing personal about my words as to my comments in discussion here or who has replied etc. Instead i think commenters here are missing a lot of history as to the market this new outfit is working in. I overlooked this is a Y-Comb startup. Maybe, i'm guessing, but i feel bad at the mere hint of suspicion that my genuine comment was suppressed or reasons of misunderstanding. No worries if i'm wrong.But i'm no bloody shill for a competitor. Maybe it's a new deadly sin or crippling vanity to wonder out loud in the fashion i imagine someone might be who is not utterly green in the world.If i'm brusque writing now it's because i feel insulted. Not slighted. Just if my outlier suspicion is even partially correct, i'm actually insulted there was no reply calling me out for being somehow wrong in a explicable way. If my language is not cool, tell me so, and you have my apologies, but i don;t think my concerns are wrong. It's not even a political position.

pg's comment above is absolutely bloody true: the reputation of the market dealing in memories and particularly photography is so murky as to be abhorrent. I don't think that's much argument though to ignore hat i was saying, so i'll try to explain my background thoughts here . .

This is all anecdotalism, but meant to hint at data you can find yourself from industry bodies, from trade journals and from not a few online discussions. I'm attempting a vignette, a bt of narrative, not thorughness or empiricism.

One side, you've got good photographers loosing wedding gigs to weekend "pros" who just bought a (now cheap, even for great stuff) DSLR, and on the other side Costco minilabs who'll call the cops on you under DMCA for trying to print any photo you take which is "too professional". (Ok, invest in an inkjet, but i'm no fan of the expense of running those, or gold dust expensive ink being "expired" on a fixed date or printer manufacturers keeping in systems which by design wste a 100 bucks of ink just to declog a head that oddly other companies manage not to clog in the first place and on and on ad nauseam).

My (not modded down, yet) comment above mentioned a true scandal - that the world's most respected imaging company dumped less than substandard stock on their most lucrative and high profile customers for more than a decade.

On a photography bent, the last pro level camera i bought, a Nikon D2X cost $5k and was a literal bleeding edge piece of kit. You really had to know what was up with your exposures, the "auto program" mode was a sure fire way to unviewable images. The very best cameras are only now approaching the ease of exposure of film, though they've worked wonders with quantum efficiency so unheard of hand - held shots are possible in almost no-light which stack up in a gallery if processed well. Those really good ones cost similar money, a bit more with the Yen where it is. For those of you who know their photogtaphy, the comparison i have is to print film (negative or "color reversal" stock, to be pedantic. I can put that in a 2 dollar camera and the lattitude means i get a usable shot, corrected in the print often as not, but i can concentrate on what i want to photograph.

This all may seem a digression, but photography was in serious business decline from 1988, the peak of the SLR system camera sales era, epitomised by Minolta, who that year lost their founder and their entire ethic and direction. Right now there's a renaissance, which is wonderful, so wonderful that the cost of technically good photography has become so low, that i think camera companies themselves wish they could be in the services game like 1000Memories. Like in '88, growth has slumped, or levelled, bt at the same time some aspects of quality and ease of use have not improved a bit since 22 years ago.

I remember an Olympus exec, it may even have been Maitani, the famous teenage designer of the world's biggest selling camera ever, the PenF, lamenting how his designs were just "Kodak eaters". I called my hobby the "family Kodak tax". What we had since digital instead was the "5K camera body tax. They are only just stopping to put sensor equipment in bodies which are less functional than a $200 bottom of line design from the 80s and charging thousands for that as the scale cost of the sensors comes down. But unless you spend real money, you still get on the whole camera design and ergonomics unimproved from 20yr old budget models. Which is why i believe Nikon have skipped a long while in offering new cameras, possibly reckoning they hit a sweet spot.Another story there, but a possible indicator of a plateau.

I'm deeply, utterly, closest to my heart, passionate about this wider situation. If as a reader you sense i'm a bit wound up, that's because this whole market is so fast approaching saturation, all that's left for any but the absolute leaders, is fashion items and product cost reduction, and so few people know what a con it really can be i wish i could make it my purpose, yet this market is a subset of my career, not a sole interest if objective. What i want to argue, with proper data, but which would be difficult to give adequate context, may sound like a geek argument over processor instruction sets where the user just wants to word process. But there is a actual causation between the tech i learned, and getting seriously good photo print in the hands of the masses.

To be absolutely clear, ANY new entrant into this general field is good. The ones i'm aware of really don't impress. When i talk to friends and family, no matter how techniclly savvy they are, i just get a shrug, and a "good as it gets" comment, which further justifies the atrophy in the market. This is a pure LCD domain.

Name ONE online printing company which can work well with getting consistent color. The minilabs are still film (scanned bulk through unevolved tech) which laser expose normal print film stock. But not one of these labs, costing hundreds of thousands for a start, has been designed to manage color output consistently. So, you order a batch to send out to family, and you're lucky to even be sending comparable pictures. Kinda makes all those hours learning photoshop a bit of a joke, eh?

(yes chemical labs are still the way to bulk print)

Most people do not notice. Prints look different under changing light (Macaulay ellipses save the say sometimes, the best RIPs for pro inkjets suss this now) and you're not even doing side by side. There's tons of tech out there not patented but in the literature (WG Hunt, might just be your man, the only Brit to significantly affect this US industry and hollywood for his early work on Kodachrome formulation) but it's not used. I havent dared look at what patents ecist, since i became even partially aware of the patentability of "busines process" and other such bunk. It's been like the big pharmas who patent a new formula for out of protection drugs and withdraw the last one available. Treadmill to no improvement. R&D that only really tries to keep the mud of rent extracting business stuck on an encumbant's wall.

But i think customers for any online photo service, save Flikr, which is straight as to what it intends to be, are at a loss. Not only because comparables are technically obscure, hardly "customer facing" but because they use print tech which has been so unpopular there exist only a handful of people with the knowlege to run them at their optimum.

What i'm scared of, is that somehow someone will get a great marketing angle - and this one is pretty good, by the way, strong enough they grab a big customer base, and because they're in competition with WalMart and who knows who else, the list is extravagantly long, margin erosion means they never even start to deliver on the promise of the tech.

This is even before we start stretching the tech limits of what's available, mass market, cheap because of scale. You see, very very little of the silver halide game has been updated since Noritsu were massive in the 80s, followed by Fuji Frontier. Inkjet has really come along, but not yet cheaply, the best capabilities still involve loading thousands of $ in ink. And only on company tries not to waste that at every opportunity, and that market, is still waiting for R&D to be recouped from high end press print proof shops and advertising houses. And even though two high en inkjet companies include basic spectro calibration functiosn which should keep your colors and densities aligned and ink usage low (not too much, not too little, a bit of undercolor removal in the screening algo) those are aimed at proofing shops, not set up so you can load any paper and get a good result. (meaning more affordable paper, which suits the vendors not, presumably)

Incidentally, when i mentioned i had a comparable commercial interest project, some time ago now, it was 180deg off what 1000Memories is doing, so i've zero interest in denigrating anyone, i iced that project for reasons which may become apparent in this post. I was pretty happy to shelve what had become a noose around my neck, after serious, multi - year coming to terms with how viscious a market this is and the tremendously high hurdles for reinvestment - allwing you really shoot for the top - which made it a idea either too hard, or badly timed, or just plain unsuitable for an exit. But is this deal on offer more than a custom CMS? I don't get it. Media has a way of reinventing the wheel and not scaling well, to be good, it's very labor intensive. So, let's provide a great hub for collaborative family publishing. Cool. But this is where i get to really worrying about things like data integrity.

As to my own project, it delved deep into a number of tech areas, a big one of which was automated image processing, which, notwithstanding patent issues with toolchains, is incredibly hard to do intelligently. When you send your pics, digital or otherwise, still the chances are you are printed on a "wet" process, and sometimes there's USM, color balancing and other things applied. If you hav a sophisiticated / demanding user, you'd need some kind of EDL metadata if not sending finished files. But every and all tweak on an image needs to be done in mind of the output, so you'd need a two - way communication between say a PS or Lightroom plugin. And we're still not fixing the underlying tech.

Maybe if you had sufficient budget to run all your customer pages from a high end inkjet. But then you've cut, bind and collation and no nice Muller Martini kit to attach as standard

For all my griping, by the way, my latest office color laser, once i waded through indecipherable manuals, tweaked up so well, on some paper stock it to my eyes close to pro inkjet output of a few years ago. Maybe that will be the way for bulk print.

ALL THE WAY HERE i'm imagining that print services are a monetization plan for 100Memories. Well, it would make sense. People will want that, even if it is just working out a good PDF layout engine which can send a file back for you to print locally, which makes sense if shipping and handling is cost barrier. Even there, there's no neat way of ensuring a PDF file is set up to match the printer, and designing a protocol for that would be an excellent thing to do. (there are well over a hundred basic setings on my fairly modest "workgroup" color laser, but when set right, it's impressive to my very jundiced eyes) Which could then be sold to much bigger organisations than families. Remote proofing, as it's called, is very mature if you have the skills and not a small amount of domain learning. But making it actually usable, ad i mean simpler than "usable" like the Word "ribbon" which flummoxed experienced users, as the very least point in appreciating "usable" would be awesome. Then, you are taking out a big rump of the work design and print shops do. Funny thing is i've encountered so many print shops who do none of the care like this despite they have the kit, and whilst they're collectively the biggest customers of some very big companies indeed who dominate printer and ink supply (and do a bit of real IT on the side) i don't see them being much threatened by nice driver / firmware upgrades coming from their own supplier.

I may be utterly wrong in my hunch that this project 1000Memories is driven by the digial photography market. Sure it will i hope be driven substantially by the new web font technologies . . if anyone can work around the problems of fonts obfuscated / truncated for web so they can't readily be copied (you loose the kerning pairs and much beside), and with that tech actually get good print typography consistent with, even better than, web pages which come to be a kind of approximate proof.

Any of this is trying to note how taking the tech high ground might suggest that the Adobe hegemony might even be assailed. Or at least peppered with buck shot. Photoshop "Elements" if you've used it is no fun. Photoshop itself is steeped in the history of press tech, and requires a certain attitude. You're not even talking here about "Indesign lite" which is not available, though the product proper ate Quark for breakfast by adopting the TeX composition engine, oh, and targetting PC users as priority. But even Adobe is small beer compared with the photo industry. I use the word industry carefully, in the sense there's a steel industry, a oil industry etc. I mean a market with huge diversity and scale where a process can change economic growth rates, maybe even demographics.

Refecting on that word "industry", a photo hosting site is a business size service. Service is what you do to hook people for sure, but good servive, being the nice guys really can be done by a lot of people. And screwed up by the few, thinking of recent oil scandals. This is why i'm pretty mad about this "don't be a jerk" issue. That's obviously a minimum, who the heck wants to start a business with less than good citizen values? But services can be replicated easily, become hyper local so they won't scale, and you still need some technical advantage for anything to fly on the web. Privately ths is why i get the heebie jeebies reading how a web servive is atrophying because they are not rolling out continuous features. That seems to be a treadmill as well as a PR disaster waiting to happen because it's just watching a continuous race not necessarily about the things which matter to customers (thinking of FB alienating users this way). Somewhere along the line, your customer has to find out that something you do, which is protectable, is better than someone else can do. My recent fave point is how i may use a supposedly outmoded Nokia, but reception is better because of that near century long skill in radio (sorry, forget how long Nok have been about, but Ericsson are about a 100 years old) yet because of that historical focus they seem unable to catch any zeitgeist like appeal, or as a pal would say "can't market their way out of a wet paper bag". (maybe they will win against Apple, but it'll be a cash win, not a "stop using out ideas" win i expect)

If i'm even partially right, that photo services, even couched in terms of doing a specific social role very well, are economically correlated with the digital camera game, the problem becomes what happens when a behemoth in that industry, like Canon (Nikon are very small in comparison, have no print division etc etc) decides their camera unit growth is dwindling so fast they want in on the print utility game. Well, then i see it as a race to "featurize" underlying tech, finding things to do with images (like family books, obituaries and the like) which is really CMS plus layout and printing (but, no way is that easy, as i've been trying to talk about above) and they can move not just lots of money, but crucial bits of he underlying technology. When i think of what can be done for the print tech, i think the big gguys just sand-bag, drip dripping their best stuff when their numbers reuire it. I believe MS did this with the Cutler obtained VMS "experience".

In other words, for 1000Memories, i want to see how it really stands out. I picked - posssibly unfairly - on the storage integrity problem, which is another ticking bomb masked by $bln corps who have awesome sales reps in the thousands, and which problem will start to impact all but the smallest small businesses soon, and which is an industry wide problem for which there's no impetus to resolve now, or influence disruptive or otherwise to address the core issues.

What can 1000Memories do, first to shoot for the stars on some aspect of technical quality, then to execute against a market where a lot of underlying technical quality is buried so deep you may as well hardly try to stand out, and then further execute against big camera companies (I'd be more worried about Sony, if they could only do joined up handwriting in their plans again) who can find ways to restore the consumer confidence they lost in their previous pathetic forays into online "memory treasury". By the by i think those early efforts folded because of scrutiny by what was then a much higher skilled audience which was selected by the sheer cost of early digital cameras. Maybe the same old will wash now, but i'm not sure about that.

Sorry to go on about this, but "not being jerks" is a single aspirational goal, not an easy indicator or simple target to convey. Certainly not if the reason the market you're in stinks for a myriad of tech/econominc reasons, where good guys burn out because those tech/econonomic barriers have become entreched.

Behind every altruistic plan there's a very no b.s. guy or guys, i won't say ruthless, but as they say "no good deed" and you really have to be hard to push a vision which touches people privately and which means to do so you have to uproot big commerce interests, or at the least shake them up. I still find it hard to contemplate how difficult it really is to do all that and at the same time to project your ability to be a safe harbor for intimate valuables over decades. Maybe that's not the pitch precisely, but the minute a company talks about family legacy and inheritance, that's what i read between the lines. Solving the worry as to how our almost exponentially growing digital memory archive will be safely stored is a technical challenge, a marketing challenge, maybe even a collabrative challenge with big players you're not in business to compete with (until they run out of revenue growth) but absolutely no way is it something to be brushed under the carpet.

To my mind, all i see is the chance to take real high ground early in what will become a industry studded with memories of the tears of innocents who chose to upload to the guys with the half - plan, and the greater shedding of tears of those who appreciate just how bloody good the online archive / print results could be, even disallowing any development with new tech from the machine suppliers, printers, scanners or whoever yo uneed to have in plant.

Which is why i'm flabbergasted at being modded down earlier. I'm not good at being subtle i realize, and this is a very long reply to emphasise just one or two points which i thought would be obvious to readers which might exonerate my earlier negatively critical comments.

Hope if you read this far, you found something stimualating in between my perforce terribly forshortened argument.

kind regards to all, sypathy for those who would have preferred a TL;DR version.

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#37
post #33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Love" might be a little too strong for people who were only marginally connected to the deceased.

Show your caring?

I don't like "caring" as a noun much. I think "support" is good -- it means "emotional support for the family", not "I support this dead dude, he was cool".

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#38
post #16
post #13

"They’ll develop their business model over time". That would be a little scary to me as an investor.

So would the fact that they have (sensible) ethical issues about extracting money from grieving relatives.

That's why you need to think about providing a valuable service, not "extracting money."

A potentially good business model in the future could be to provide services such as taking piles of media from the family and compiling it into slideshows, videos, etc.

There is a ton of analog media that people want digitized. Offering this service to mourning families and creating a package that could be purchased by/for members of the family could be lucrative.

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is limited to people that have passed on. I want my photos out there for a long time, but I don't want to hand everything over to flickr/picasa, etc.

What about archive.org?

That's not quite it. For one, I have no control over what gets archived. My site with the photos would likely not get much traffic since it's only interesting to my family and friends. Also, it's a lot of content: currently around 4GB and growing. Instead, I'd like to be able to pre-pay for a managed server to run with a guarantee for the next say 100 years. If in that time, any of my descendants decide that what I have there is worthwhile they can renew it for another 100.

Re: 1000Memories: A Loved One Has Passed Away. What’s Your Digital Strategy?

#40
post #13

"They’ll develop their business model over time". That would be a little scary to me as an investor.

I fairness, what company doesn't evolve their business model over time, espcially startups? Steve Blank is my hero on this issue, drumming home a whole theory which anyone who has been in a startup and up against it as opposed to burning hot money, knows at least close to half of it intuitively, but never got to write down or work out what they really knew. The most lethal argument i ever had with my co-founder was "but you need to do a busines splan" versus \"but it'll be out of date by the time i edit my awful prose". Since we were bootstrapped, i didn't feel we needed it for widow dressing . .I say it was lethal - it wasn't but it was a huge drag and a wasteful personal point of contention, made tricky because my co-founder had thirty years experience on me and i idolised him, just not when it came to that particular point :)
Post reply on HN