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Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

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Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#31
post #17
post #8

I agree that the left and the rights reaction over the memo has been overblown. However I am unsure whether or not you think the Googler's opinion is novel. You state both, "that Damore’s skepticism about current practices is widespread" and "imperfect his attempt, he was fired, in short, for thinking on his own". As someone who works in the tech industry let me tell you his beliefs were not novel. Its a commonly hel…

> This is not how "affirmative action" works. "Affirmative action" states that if you have two "equally" qualified candidates If you can quantify candidates' capabilities, please start your money printing press.

Then then why would affirmative action lead to less capable employees?

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#32
post #16
post #4

This is an excellent discussion. I especially love this comment: > I believe for example if it wasn’t for biases and unequal opportunities, then the higher ranks in science and politics would be dominated by women. Hence, aiming at a 50-50 representation gives men an unfair advantage. I challenge you to provide any evidence to the contrary. Because arguably that's where gender differences highlighted in Damore's memo…

I'll take up that challenge with https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10670 which provides quantitative data indicating that male abilities vary more than female ones, and this fact is sufficient to explain why men should be overrepresented in CEO boardrooms and prisons.

I think this is related with the XY chromosome. Because you have the Y instead of the X you have a part where you don't have 2 genes to encode a feature. So there is not gen dominant and recessive. This leads a more variation when the Y is passed to the offspring. This is the example I read when I was reading about this: if the parents are X5X7 X6Y (where the number represents a feature that is not in the Y chromosome). The offspring could be X5Y X5X6 X7Y X7X6, but the feature is expressed as the average of the numbers: X5Y=5 X5X6=5,5 X7Y=7 X7X6=6,5. The women are more close to the average (6) than the men.

Why is the feature expressed as the average? If one gene is recessive and another dominant only one matters. So it could be expressed like this: X5Y=5 X5X6=5 X7Y=7 X7X6= 7 where there are no differences between genders.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#33

> That leaked internal memo from James Damore at Google? The one that says one shouldn’t expect employees in all professions to reflect the demographics of the whole population? I don't see how this is an unreasonable argument to make. There is a dearth of male kindergarten teachers, for instance. This doesn't mean the school is being "sexist". It might just mean that certain genders tend to be attracted to certain t…

No, it definitely means there are fields that are biased against men. These include any field in which nurturing and compassion are considered vital traits.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#34
post #9

Completely right. I hope this is not banned because it is worth the read.

Whichever side you are on this is probably the most important topic discussed in this forum this week. It is also very interesting to a large number of the audience. Yet sadly there seems to be a number of people here who think they have a right to overrule everyone who upvote (and no, I'm not talking about the mods but about the flaggers.)

[deleted]

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#35

I like the discussion. I think the point about software being significantly "people centric" is a bit off base and betrays the authors lack of experience in the field. Working with people is certainly part of the job and in some roles maybe a large portion of the work. Being a good communicator is an important part of being a good developer, but it doesn't make you a good developer. Being a talented and experienced p…

That's a nice theory, but I fail to see any evidence of it. I see lots of people cap out at senior engineer, cause that's how far you can get without having strong technical skills. Staff engineers, tech leads, and managers all get there because they're good communicators, and tbh, in those roles, their engineering skills are secondary.

If middling engineers end up in senior development positions I wonder where all the top performers go... certainly not 100% into management.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#36

Please consider donating to help get James Damore back on his feet and gainfully employed again: https://www.wesearchr.com/bounties/james-damore-official-fun... This could have been any of us.

This could have been any of us

Well no, not any of us. Perhaps some of us, but not any of us.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#37
Certainly much better than a lot of the outrage that's been going on. A couple of nits:

> I know most of Google’s work is people-centric.

Hmmm...is that really so? Last I checked a lot of Google's code output and value-generation is backend-y, with very little interaction with humans. Google is also notoriously bad-mediocre at UX, though this has improved lately.

> Assuming that job skills and performance can be deduced from

> differences among demographic groups.

Hmm...he didn't do this, and in fact explicitly states that doing so is not correct.

> Damore naturally assumes the differences between

> typically female and male traits mean that men are more skilled.

I also didn't see that in the memo. At all. First, what he talks about is mostly preferences, not skills. Second, there is the whole "you can't draw conclusions about individuals from slight variations in populations"-thing. So you can't turn "women have slightly stronger preferences, statistically, for these things" into "men are more skilled". Third, and maybe least intuitively, this is almost entirely about the people who don't (yet) work at Google.

Finally, she brings up Northern Europe. I can relate, because I am also from Germany, and yes, the country finds, for example, having a female Chancellor simply not remarkable. So when people vote for or against her, it is largely (can't speak for everyone) because of what they think about her, her party and their policies (or in her specific case, lack thereof g), not because she is a woman or is not a man.

And I also believe this applies to other jobs as well.

However, what Sabine misses is that this has not had the effect of gender representation in the job market equalizing. Surprisingly, it has had the opposite effect, as has been documented many places. And yes, I want to stress again how utterly unexpected this is.

And so:

> I believe for example if it wasn’t for biases and unequal

> opportunities, then the higher ranks in science and politics

> would be dominated by women. Hence, aiming at a 50-50 representation

> gives men an unfair advantage. I challenge you to provide any

> evidence to the contrary.

Challenge accepted (although not for politics, that's a different subject)!

If it were obstacles, countries that (as we both agree) have fewer of those obstacles such as Northern Europeans ones would see more women in technical fields. The opposite is the case.

And of course there is the point that the question is not "why aren't there more women in these jobs", but "why are there any men that do them", because they generally suck if you want to have a life. See Jordan Peterson's excellent take on "Women in High Paying Jobs": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV2yvI4Id9Q

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#38

I like the discussion. I think the point about software being significantly "people centric" is a bit off base and betrays the authors lack of experience in the field. Working with people is certainly part of the job and in some roles maybe a large portion of the work. Being a good communicator is an important part of being a good developer, but it doesn't make you a good developer. Being a talented and experienced p…

Being a talented and experienced developer means interacting with people, though. Knowing how to program is half the battle; knowing why is the other half, and that's hard to do if you don't understand the perspectives of your users/customers/coworkers/etc.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#39
post #9

Completely right. I hope this is not banned because it is worth the read.

Whichever side you are on this is probably the most important topic discussed in this forum this week. It is also very interesting to a large number of the audience. Yet sadly there seems to be a number of people here who think they have a right to overrule everyone who upvote (and no, I'm not talking about the mods but about the flaggers.)

I have to say that I flagged one of the other post because I was tired of the topic and there weren't adding anything new. But this one is outstanding.

Re: Outraged about the Google diversity memo?

#40
post #21

Harvard President Lawrence H. Summers being fired in 2006 showed that there could be no rational discussion of this topic. Sad to see it unchanged in 2017. Doubly sad because if the anonymous survey linked in the post is true, 1/3 of Googlers agree with the memo. Only 1/3 "strongly disagree", and the people who wanted him fired should be a further fraction of that 1/3. https://basicgestalt.wordpress.com/2017/08/06/pr…

I mean, you linked to a white supremacist's blog to prove your point. Is that a good case for your argument?
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