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The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

nytimes.com

31–40 of 481 posts

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#31
post #4

Over here (in Europe) we get the impression that US has such a crazy healthcare system. Why aren't people marching in the streets? Is it not as crazy as it sounds for most users? If you're taken to ER how are you supposed to know if the doctors are all part of "your network" (whatever that even means)?

Fellow European (UK) here. From what I understand one argument often given, is that there's a mistrust of the government for anything like this and people prefer to "shop" for it themselves. By making their own choice (even if all that actually means is picking from 1 or 2 options given to them by their employer) - they feel empowered and in control of it. There is a general feeling of "if you want it, pay for it".

This StackExchange answer sums up it up succinctly: https://politics.stackexchange.com/a/16372. I find it immensely saddening; the same goes with the general population's attitude to education (in many countries) or providing housing.

For what it's worth I know a lot of people with private healthcare in the UK with the attitude that the NHS is complete trash (something I very much disagree with) - I fear this sort of mindset is spreading. "Pull the ladder up jack" as they say.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#32

So, basically, if you visit any emergency room then your handing them a blank Check and they can write whatever number on there they want. That's egregious beyond belief. I'm never one to call for legislation and price controls, but in the face of such adversity, I think it may be our last hope. I think they should either provide a quote before they offer the services or there should be a law limiting the amount that…

Another approach would be that a hospital actually has to take responsibility for the doctors and all other care teams working inside. Legislation to this effect would work, but in some cities there is enough competition that a marketing campaign along the lines of "guaranteed no out of network bills!" would catch my attention. I'd happily drive an extra hour for that piece of mind. And the reality is that a large number of ER visits are not true time-critical emergencies. Many times the standard admission procedure starts with reporting to the ER.

I spent 4+ hours before a small outpatient procedure at a local hospital trying to find out if the anesthesia group and surgeons were in-network. I never got a straight answer -- no one knew the answer and I was forced to roll the dice.

Hospitals are currently more like co-working spaces where each room (ORs, radiology, etc.) is rented out. The support staff is included, but everyone else is their own small business.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#33
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those in the middle and upper class have employer-paid health insurance which protects from the worst of bills. You only go bankrupt if you're uninsured and usually only those in the lower-middle or lower class are uninsured. And those in the lower echelon of society economically are those least able to have the time or money to march or lobby for change.

I went to ER a couple of months ago for a relatively minor issue and stayed for a few hours total. This was in-network hospital, doctors and so on. Purely by co-pays this ended up being a ~$800 bill after all the insurance kicked in. If I didn't have a comfy software engineer salary, and instead lived paycheck to paycheck, this would've been devastating, even with insurance.

Which is ridiculous. We're at the point where the insurance is just covering the cost of the overhead that necessitates having insurance in the first place. There's no way the real charge should be $800, let alone co-pay.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#34

So, basically, if you visit any emergency room then your handing them a blank Check and they can write whatever number on there they want. That's egregious beyond belief. I'm never one to call for legislation and price controls, but in the face of such adversity, I think it may be our last hope. I think they should either provide a quote before they offer the services or there should be a law limiting the amount that…

Cost control right now in the medical industry is all up to your insurance provider, from the article it looks like EmCare is skirting this by simply not participating in any (or very few) provider networks.

I work for a medical billing company owned by a competitor to EmCare, we participate it a large number of insurance networks at each site we staff because it's the best way to get reimbursed - I'm rather shocked the hospital didn't investigate how their contracted providers handled insurance contracts and billing.

The problem with trying to provide quotes for emergency services is you don't know ahead of time what E&M code will apply to the visit, what labs will be run, what procedures may be required for treatment, and since physician and facility billing are separate the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.

I also have some suspicions about the jump from 6% to 28% rates for billing what I assume is a 99285 (highest level non-trauma ED E&M code) and why it may explain the lack of their participation in insurance networks, but I don't want to tread into libel territory so I'll keep my mouth shut.

Disclaimer: I work for MedAmerica Billing Services, Inc. a subsidiary of CEP America - these views, opinions and statements are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#35
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those in the middle and upper class have employer-paid health insurance which protects from the worst of bills. You only go bankrupt if you're uninsured and usually only those in the lower-middle or lower class are uninsured. And those in the lower echelon of society economically are those least able to have the time or money to march or lobby for change.

I went to ER a couple of months ago for a relatively minor issue and stayed for a few hours total. This was in-network hospital, doctors and so on. Purely by co-pays this ended up being a ~$800 bill after all the insurance kicked in. If I didn't have a comfy software engineer salary, and instead lived paycheck to paycheck, this would've been devastating, even with insurance.

That $800 is cheap. I have a high deductible plan, and a recent visit will easily wipe out $4,500 of the $6,000 I had saved in my HSA. For a family of 4, I have been trying to save $8,500 (my OOP family maximum) for 3 years, but the HSA max contribution caps me at $6,750. Can't get there.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#36
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Single payer is the only viable solution. " That's not true. Plenty of European systems are not single payer and work fine.

I am not familiar with these alternate systems; how do they work?

A mix of a public payer and private payers, as was proposed in the US in the original draft of the ACA.

Edit: a common thread among these systems is that the private payers are not for profit and highly regulated.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#37

I am having problems with my insurer at this very moment. I went to an in-network hospital for an ER visit, which turned into an 8-day stay (yes, it was serious). Evidently, none of the doctors at the hospital are in-network, however, (claims from various technicians are still "in processing", so I don't know how they will turn out) despite the fact that the hospital itself is definitely in-network. I had no choice a…

First, hope you're feeling better.

This is exactly why Congress should not be exempt from any health care legislation. They need to go through this also, so it can be fixed.

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#38

I am having problems with my insurer at this very moment. I went to an in-network hospital for an ER visit, which turned into an 8-day stay (yes, it was serious). Evidently, none of the doctors at the hospital are in-network, however, (claims from various technicians are still "in processing", so I don't know how they will turn out) despite the fact that the hospital itself is definitely in-network. I had no choice a…

This sounds like fraud to me. Fight it legally! A co-worker told me that this happened to her, and that made me not take the in-network only plan, but I got the PPO instead. I still think it's illegal or morally not right what they are doing, so we should all fight this practice!!!

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#39
In a past life, I worked in health insurance fraud detection.

Everybody should know, the health insurance system in the US is fundamentally broken and has been almost since its inception in the early 20th century. The lack of adequate consumer protection, transparency, health systems and appropriate government regulation, in addition to organizational oversight, has lead to a situation where we have poor systems that can easily be exploited. And they are exploited.

What the third party care outsourcing/billing company mentioned in the article (Emcare) was doing sounds like upcoding. They bill the highest cost service they legitimately can to maximize profit. In this case, as a third party billing organization, they both want to maximize the profit for their customer (the hospital system), but also for themselves, as they surely take a cut as a middle man.

Likely, they were operating within the gray area where illegal upcoding has to be proven in a court of law. It is an expensive process, that requires review and comparison of huge amounts of medical records with claims to determine whether the more expensive procedure billed was medically necessary/appropriate, or if it was egregious. That legal process does pan out sometimes in the end, but it can take years and just adds even more overhead.

Coding correctly, fairly and getting reimbursed correctly and fairly is incredibly complex. There are an enormous number of combinations of services (usually represented by codes called HCPCs and CPT codes) and diagnoses (ICD-10... which has 100,000s of codes), as well as all different regulations and scenarios for settings of care (inpatient, outpatient, doctor's office, etc.).

Props go to the hospital system for taking back their coding after they realized what the third party was doing, but the reality is, it was probably financially benefiting the hospital system too.

Every technology that I know of has been tried to address these issues, such as data mining, machine learning, rule-based expert systems, etc. and none of them has addressed the root cause, which is the basic system is fundamentally flawed.

All the politics you see about US healthcare in the news are, in a way, representative of the root problem - how big and complex the systems are now, how much money they represent, and how many interests are involved. We have a tangled web.

I don't know the solution (and many have been proposed).

Re: The Company Behind Many Surprise Emergency Room Bills

#40

Does anyone know if a lawsuit has been lodged questioning these practices? I've always thought that my informed consent should also apply to cost of procedure - I have a right to say "NO" to something in the medical establishment. And had I known the price and the success rate, I would have said "No". Now, I'm not asking "What is my exact rate?", although that would indeed be nice. But given minimal complications, I…

Price transparency is pretty meaningless for ER care. Anything that is serious enough for an ER visit probably distracts you from making good economic choices, plus it's likely impractical to change ER (plus you'll pay for that ambulance ride!) Further, it shouldn't be necessary for people to be making financial decisions in the middle of medical emergencies, even if it was easy.

> Anything that is serious enough for an ER visit probably distracts you from making good economic choices, plus it's likely impractical to change ER (plus you'll pay for that ambulance ride!)

there are all sorts of folks using ERs for non-emergency issues, simply because ERs are required to treat everyone.

both of my trips to the ER (subluxed knee; particulate matter lodged in my eye) would've been amenable to at least a few moments of financial consideration, had any information been available to me.

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