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Meditation: Why Bother?

vipassana.com

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Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#31

Post by dtf »

tel wrote: post #27

This essay angers me with its presumption. It reads off like a fortune teller reaching for whatever level of generalized sympathy will get you nodding along. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to see the boiling resentment and stress in watching families sing Sweet Caroline along with the crowd at the local baseball game, or maybe I'm just far too aware of the postmodern tradition of misery the essayist is targeting…

I found it distasteful. I very much respect the idea of personal meditation, but this essay gave me that belly nausea that I experience reading a religious pamphlet dropped on my doorstep. "Purify the mind"? "Emotional bondage"? Is this any different from "auditing" my "reactive mind" in search of the elusive "state of clear"? I like my emotions goddammit, and this essay left me flustered and angry!

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#32

Post by crayz »

Avshalom wrote: post #19
wangwei wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, you didn't understand the essay or the meditation. Meditation is not nihilism or anti-materialism. I am not sure how i can explain it to you to make it clear to you. I remember from a Buddhist saying that if your glass is full, there is nothing one can do about it. You need to remove something in your glass first before you can pour anything else into it. I feel like you are full of ignorance and false as…

You're really going to call me close minded in defense of an essay that gets all of five paragraphs in before calling my experiences and emotions fake? An essay that dismisses the idea that there exists people comfortable with feeling the full range of human emotions, that dismisses civilization as a whole as self deception? And you're sure you want to defend a Buddhist by telling me he's not anti-materialistic? Also…

When he says they're 'faking' it, it's the wrong word. I would say more that in a meditative mindset, the cognitive dissonance and sheer mental noise most people are dealing with on a minute-by-minute basis becomes very apparent

Until you've been able to get your own mind to quiet down, to get rid of the nagging voices and tugging emotions and distorting filters in your head, it's very very difficult to notice this

If you've never experienced this sort of total perspective shift, I recommend that you read a bit more and reconsider your objections. Meditation is not about freezing to death in a cave

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#33

Post by crayz »

dtf wrote: post #31
tel wrote: post #27

This essay angers me with its presumption. It reads off like a fortune teller reaching for whatever level of generalized sympathy will get you nodding along. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to see the boiling resentment and stress in watching families sing Sweet Caroline along with the crowd at the local baseball game, or maybe I'm just far too aware of the postmodern tradition of misery the essayist is targeting…

I found it distasteful. I very much respect the idea of personal meditation, but this essay gave me that belly nausea that I experience reading a religious pamphlet dropped on my doorstep. "Purify the mind"? "Emotional bondage"? Is this any different from "auditing" my "reactive mind" in search of the elusive "state of clear"? I like my emotions goddammit, and this essay left me flustered and angry!

I like my emotions goddammit, and this essay left me flustered and angry!

So this essay enabled you two experience two of your emotions, you must have enjoyed it

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#34

Post by programnature »

tel wrote: post #27

This essay angers me with its presumption. It reads off like a fortune teller reaching for whatever level of generalized sympathy will get you nodding along. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to see the boiling resentment and stress in watching families sing Sweet Caroline along with the crowd at the local baseball game, or maybe I'm just far too aware of the postmodern tradition of misery the essayist is targeting…

Speaking for myself, I found the assessment about labeling all experiences as good, bad, or neutral (and then ignoring the neutral bin 99% of the time) to be right on the money.

I also find the rollercoaster metaphor to be pretty on the money as well. Yes, there are nice experiences, but they do not last forever and in the end are empirically unsatisfying; as a result, their shadow side is that we compulsively try to attain them, thus causing suffering.

Not sure where you are getting the postmodern vibes from, this is basic buddhism dogma for the last 2500 years. It seems the very thing the author is pointing out is what is ticking you off: this is a shared experience of all humans. But I don't think that just because its a lowest common denominator is a reason to dismiss it out of hand as a manipulation.

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#35

Post by Groxx »

What's with the see-saw of meditation articles lately? It's better than expected, science™ proves it! It's a waste of time, news at eleven! We'll show you how for only some monies!

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#36

Post by andrew_k »

nickpinkston wrote: post #29

Based on most of the people I know who meditate, they don't seem to be any different from a random sample. Are there studies that show that meditate is good for X? Perhaps the causation is actually that people with X tend to be good at meditating? Just wondering...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#37

Post by k0n2ad »

drblast wrote: post #10

That's one of the best essays I've ever read. It says almost nothing about meditation, but it nails every frustration and unhappiness I've ever experienced. It makes me think that if someone can be that insightful, I'm more likely to go along with whatever he suggests because he's got it figured out so well. Maybe it's time to give meditation a shot.

If this comment was meant to be sarcastic then it was expertly executed! BTW, you really don't need a teacher to learn meditation... just sit down, shut up and focus on your breathing for a few minutes each day... and watch how wild your mind is.

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#38

Post by tel »

programnature wrote: post #34
tel wrote: post #27

This essay angers me with its presumption. It reads off like a fortune teller reaching for whatever level of generalized sympathy will get you nodding along. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to see the boiling resentment and stress in watching families sing Sweet Caroline along with the crowd at the local baseball game, or maybe I'm just far too aware of the postmodern tradition of misery the essayist is targeting…

Speaking for myself, I found the assessment about labeling all experiences as good, bad, or neutral (and then ignoring the neutral bin 99% of the time) to be right on the money. I also find the rollercoaster metaphor to be pretty on the money as well. Yes, there are nice experiences, but they do not last forever and in the end are empirically unsatisfying; as a result, their shadow side is that we compulsively try to…

They're all sensible abstractions of the way we think, but to judge the problems developed by this framework as the root of all dissatisfaction is to take it too seriously. To pass off this conviction as truth is then dishonest. By this model, we're clearly dishonest all the time, but the author does a disservice to the reader through the holier than thou rhetoric.

Postmodern angst isn't the introduction of new ideas on the global scale, just a particular rehashing of them that has resonated with consumerist America for the last 50 years. Perhaps it's safest to say there are many outlooks on human suffering, but any and all ways of saying them are insufficiently precise to have claims of solutions be anything more than delusion.

So now, I'll apologize beforehand should I misspeak, but I believe the heart of the study of meditation is wrapped up in just doing meditation because talking about it only occludes one's understanding of the practice. With that in hand, I find the article even more disingenuous. Whatever happened to good old koans? Just because they're tricky doesn't mean they were an accident.

Shut up and meditate. Or exercise. Or backpack. Or go dancing.

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#39

Post by iskander »

nickpinkston wrote: post #29

Based on most of the people I know who meditate, they don't seem to be any different from a random sample. Are there studies that show that meditate is good for X? Perhaps the causation is actually that people with X tend to be good at meditating? Just wondering...

I know several people who have taken up meditation and they each have changed significantly through their experiences. Perhaps it's more useful to compare someone who meditates to their former selves rather than some nebulous concept of an "average" person.

Re: Meditation: Why Bother?

#40

Post by drblast »

k0n2ad wrote: post #37
drblast wrote: post #10

That's one of the best essays I've ever read. It says almost nothing about meditation, but it nails every frustration and unhappiness I've ever experienced. It makes me think that if someone can be that insightful, I'm more likely to go along with whatever he suggests because he's got it figured out so well. Maybe it's time to give meditation a shot.

If this comment was meant to be sarcastic then it was expertly executed! BTW, you really don't need a teacher to learn meditation... just sit down, shut up and focus on your breathing for a few minutes each day... and watch how wild your mind is.

Not meant to be sarcastic at all. I just appreciate the insight in the essay.

I'd rather someone be an example of the results of their ideology, than have them try to sell me on it. I think it speaks volumes.

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