Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#31

Post by shakna » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:56 AM UTC

hyperdunc wrote: post #30

beefsack wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture is one of the vitally important things which make us unique as humans. Both as an Australian and as a linguist it's painful to understand how quickly indigenous culture here is being lost; my narrow and focused view is on language but the rate at which Aboriginal languages are dying at is absolutely alarming. Protecting culturally significant sites here is of vital importance both for historical reasons as we…

Everything changes. All those indigenous languages are going to be lost in the sense they won't be actively used anymore - and that's not a bad thing. Even English will ultimately be lost, although it will likely be through the mechanisms of language evolution rather than first becoming moribund. Trying to preserving language and culture for its own sake is somewhat selfish, because it restricts individuals' experien…

> Better to take the good parts and incorporate them into daily life. The rest can remain in the tomes of history.

You can't do that when the culture is lost because of the social upheavals that colonisation and the subsequent history.

Preserving these things allow us to remember them, and improve today with them.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#32

Post by shakna » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:59 AM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #16

aaron695 wrote: post #2

You don't get published for confirming existing theory (Sad but true, to an extent) So I'd bet against it. The article itself links to another article that seems to have evidence contradicting it - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/08/science/aboriginal-austra... It'd be interesting to hear an expert opinion on it.

I'd hesitate to generalize across fields which attack problems of different scopes of difficulties, but when I see authors follow a scientific dialogue, I see them publish twists of experiments which efficiently answer a few critical potential avenues of an argument, rather than simply replication vs. refutation.

The particular lead scientist in this case is a huge proponent of replication. They published the raw data along with their findings so that others can repeat the experiments.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#33

Post by Ar-Curunir » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:02 AM UTC

hyperdunc wrote: post #30

beefsack wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture is one of the vitally important things which make us unique as humans. Both as an Australian and as a linguist it's painful to understand how quickly indigenous culture here is being lost; my narrow and focused view is on language but the rate at which Aboriginal languages are dying at is absolutely alarming. Protecting culturally significant sites here is of vital importance both for historical reasons as we…

Everything changes. All those indigenous languages are going to be lost in the sense they won't be actively used anymore - and that's not a bad thing. Even English will ultimately be lost, although it will likely be through the mechanisms of language evolution rather than first becoming moribund. Trying to preserving language and culture for its own sake is somewhat selfish, because it restricts individuals' experien…

Trying to preserve culture is good because it leaves choice in the hands of the individuals; they get to choose what parts to pick.

It's incredibly easy to talk about "survival of the fittest" cultures from a Western point of view, but ask almost any other peoples that have had their culture irreparably damaged by colonial policies, and you'll find a different mindset.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#34

Post by h0l0cube » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:32 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #17

sohkamyung wrote: post #9

I prefer the version published in The Conversation [1] by the researches themselves. It contains more details including one part left out of the NYTimes version: that the work was done with the approval of the Aboriginal people who control the site: "To make new research possible, a landmark agreement was reached between the University of Queensland (and associated researchers) and the Gundjeihmi Aboriginal Corporati…

I really don't think they should have that level of control over something 65,000 which they may have no connection too. More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems.

I see a pretty obvious contradiction here. You would think that the respect of ancient cultures that motivates such excavations would motivate the protection of those related and endangered cultures of today.

And if the only reasonable claim on a piece of dirt is sovereignty, not to mention that that sovereignty been placed back in the hands of aboriginal elders, the sovereignty alone isn't enough justification to go digging for the past - it would seem that curiosity is part and parcel of a respect for culture.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#35

Post by hyperdunc » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:35 AM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #33

hyperdunc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything changes. All those indigenous languages are going to be lost in the sense they won't be actively used anymore - and that's not a bad thing. Even English will ultimately be lost, although it will likely be through the mechanisms of language evolution rather than first becoming moribund. Trying to preserving language and culture for its own sake is somewhat selfish, because it restricts individuals' experien…

Trying to preserve culture is good because it leaves choice in the hands of the individuals; they get to choose what parts to pick. It's incredibly easy to talk about "survival of the fittest" cultures from a Western point of view, but ask almost any other peoples that have had their culture irreparably damaged by colonial policies, and you'll find a different mindset.

The individuals are doing that choosing when they choose not to preserve certain parts. They're going to abandon the parts in favor of alternatives that work better. The abandoned parts will no longer be passed down because they lack practical value - but they can be recorded.

Trying to preserve a static and separate cultural identity is pointless when knowledge, technology and our environments are changing quickly. At best the efforts are well-meaning and harmless. At worst, they present as a fetish where post-colonial guilt tries to turn the West into a zoo of distinct cultures.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#36

Post by flukus » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:45 AM UTC

shakna wrote: post #31

hyperdunc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything changes. All those indigenous languages are going to be lost in the sense they won't be actively used anymore - and that's not a bad thing. Even English will ultimately be lost, although it will likely be through the mechanisms of language evolution rather than first becoming moribund. Trying to preserving language and culture for its own sake is somewhat selfish, because it restricts individuals' experien…

> Better to take the good parts and incorporate them into daily life. The rest can remain in the tomes of history. You can't do that when the culture is lost because of the social upheavals that colonisation and the subsequent history. Preserving these things allow us to remember them, and improve today with them.

You think there's been none of that in 65000 years?

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#37

Post by dalbasal » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:47 AM UTC

nikbackm wrote: post #27

fdej wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Humans first migrated out of Africa at least 100,000 years ago, which would give plenty of time to reach Australia by 65,000 years ago. The technology to build boats or rafts could easily have been forgotten over thousands of years if seafaring was not crucial to surviving on the new continent.

Wasn't the sea levels lower at that time as well?

It was, but never low enough to make it the whole way without boats. There's a line called the "Wallace Line," dividing distinct ecological regions of flora and fauna. No matter when migration happened, they would have needed to cross seas.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#38

Post by shakna » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 10:49 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #36

shakna wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Better to take the good parts and incorporate them into daily life. The rest can remain in the tomes of history. You can't do that when the culture is lost because of the social upheavals that colonisation and the subsequent history. Preserving these things allow us to remember them, and improve today with them.

You think there's been none of that in 65000 years?

You're in a thread where we just discovered ancient tools that throws doubt on how long humans have been in an area.

Those records are still being found.

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#39

Post by sundvor » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 11:04 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #21

ekianjo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More worrying is that I read previously that they had veto rights over any published findings as well, which creates all sorts of integrity problems. Then it should definitely be captured in the story. As a potential conflict of interest.

It was in this one ( http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-07-20/aboriginal-she... ) from the (Australian) ABC, which I assume is the nytimes source: > Under the agreement, the Mirarr people have had a right to veto the excavation at any time, control over the artefacts and final say about findings announced about the site. This leaves it open to abuse like we see in other fields where they can conduct an experimen…

Careful here. I would by no means pretend to understand them, but I'm at least aware that there are a number of special sensitivities that must be considered when it comes to Aboriginal culture. So it's certainly not about abusing the research, but about respecting their culture (if I have it right).

Re: Buried tools and pigments tell a history of humans in Australia for 65,000 years

#40

Post by aaron695 » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 11:17 AM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #15

ak39 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: "Multiple things have pointed to way less than 65,000 years (As per link)" But that's obvious. The field of paleontology/archeology works with any evidence that suggests older. One confirmed finding of "older" is enough to redate and trump multiple newer findings. That makes perfect sense.

In other words, dating an archaeological finding gives you a lower bound of how long there has been human activity on the site. Finding something older does not contradict previous results - and there are good reasons why older things are more difficult to find so absence of evidence is not (strong) evidence of absence.

> older things are more difficult to find so absence of evidence is not (strong) evidence of absence.

I agree but I'd expect some sort of logrithm though. But perhaps not.

As per the article Australia had the extinctions which line up with an earlier time period.

And as per the article evidently it's not PC to imply humans did it. There's more than science going on here.

I just want a real independent expert to comment not someone with an agenda like PoP.