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Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

independent.co.uk

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Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#31

Post by mc32 »

noddy1 wrote: post #13

sadly capitalism seems to be an incredibly effective and efficient way to completely destroy the rainforests. there does not seem to be any solution.

I would like to remind you it's not capitalism, it's any economic system. In the USSR, they used to use (and still use) track vehicles to harvest wood and what have you natural resources in the Siberian tundra --heavy track vehicles crack and damage the permafrost[1] resulting in terrible enviro damage. Once the permafrost is cracked it does not heal.

The motto for the Soviets was pretty summed up as "git er done" no matter the cost. That meant lots of enviro damage --look at the Aral sea for another example.

[1]http://images.sciencesource.com/p/14185350/Damaged-tundra-de...

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#32

Post by aaron695 »

whyenot wrote: post #12
senorjazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

> Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for oil. Another perspective would be that they attempted to blackmail the rest of the world by threatening to open Yasuni National Park to drilling, a World Heritage Site, home to uncontacted Waorani people, and one of the last locations with large land mammals left in the western Amazon. I spent a lot of time in the park and in Block 16, an area to the west that…

> Another perspective would be that they attempted to blackmail

How is it blackmail if it's a viable option they are going ahead with? Are you suggesting they are/were bluffing?

> home to uncontacted Waorani people

It is unconscionable we do not contact these people and bring them basics like modern medicine and education about proper hygiene. Basically they are animals in a zoo for our pleasure atm.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#33

Post by pxeboot »

senorjazz wrote: post #8
the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

This argument never really made sense to me. Sure Europe/USA did tremendous environmental damage to get where we are, but better alternatives were invented in the process. That knowledge is available to developing nations. They don't need to repeat the same mistakes as others.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#34

Post by sedachv »

maxerickson wrote: post #20
microcolonel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism saved the forests in North America, Brazil has a lot of state power and the corruption that comes with it. If the people of Brazil value the rainforest at all, it is a lower priority than whatever they are dealing with in their day to day life. In North America, there is more forest cover than there was 200 years ago, thanks to private ownership and maintenance of woodlands. Because of how productive these…

There's barely any old growth forest left to cut in the US.

There are large old growth forests in the Canadian boreal regions that are currently being destroyed by logging companies like Resolute. Since Canada has a strong government, Resolute can do things like file malicious lawsuits against non-profit organizations that are exposing this destruction:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-...

Brazil, in contrast, has a very libertarian government, so companies simply hire private hitmen to assassinate non-profit environmental group activists:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/13/environm...

Almost all of the old growth forest in the United States was destroyed by capitalism prior to World War I. For an extremely depressing photographic account I recommend the book Kinsey, Photographer: A Half Century of Negatives by Darius and Tabitha May Kinsey. It is a photo book of hundreds of photographs of the Pacific Northwest's giant tree forests being destroyed. The scale of these trees is almost impossible to comprehend today (only a few scattered patches of Giant Sequoias remain in California), and most of them were cut down to be made into small siding and roof shingles.

There are a handful of old forest groves left on private lands, and there are a few land trust organizations trying to save them. For example, I donate to the Save the Redwoods League, and their big project now is acquiring Mailliard Ranch.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#35

Post by sedachv »

mc32 wrote: post #31
noddy1 wrote: post #13

sadly capitalism seems to be an incredibly effective and efficient way to completely destroy the rainforests. there does not seem to be any solution.

I would like to remind you it's not capitalism, it's any economic system. In the USSR, they used to use (and still use) track vehicles to harvest wood and what have you natural resources in the Siberian tundra --heavy track vehicles crack and damage the permafrost[1] resulting in terrible enviro damage. Once the permafrost is cracked it does not heal. The motto for the Soviets was pretty summed up as "git er done" no…

Native Americans practiced setting fires as a forest management technique for thousands of years and the forests of the Pacific Northwest survived. It took less than a hundred years of logging by the USA following the Indian Wars of the 19th century to wipe all of those forests out.

The Caledonian Forest of Scotland was destroyed in roughly the same amount of time during the 19th century by the English following the Highland Clearances.

Obviously there are economic and political forms of organization that do not result in massive environmental destruction. Saying that "it's not capitalism because the USSR did it too" when clearly the example of the current situation in Brazil is capitalist is disingenuous.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#36

Post by mc32 »

sedachv wrote: post #35
mc32 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to remind you it's not capitalism, it's any economic system. In the USSR, they used to use (and still use) track vehicles to harvest wood and what have you natural resources in the Siberian tundra --heavy track vehicles crack and damage the permafrost[1] resulting in terrible enviro damage. Once the permafrost is cracked it does not heal. The motto for the Soviets was pretty summed up as "git er done" no…

Native Americans practiced setting fires as a forest management technique for thousands of years and the forests of the Pacific Northwest survived. It took less than a hundred years of logging by the USA following the Indian Wars of the 19th century to wipe all of those forests out. The Caledonian Forest of Scotland was destroyed in roughly the same amount of time during the 19th century by the English following the…

Right, I also recall how the Mayans depleted their forests and farmlands which resulted in droughts and famines and eventual social collapse. It happened rather quickly too. You are so right.

Brazil likes to think of itself as socialist --the Worker's Party (o partido dos trabalhadores) was in power for pretty long till recently (during which lots of the rainforest plundering took place). So even in Brazil, the leftists didn't care about the enviro.

I could also bring up a litany of Chinese projects, North Korean projects, Vietnamese, Former Soviet repubs. I think you get the picture. Much of the degradation was due to utilizing outdated technology, other times, just complete disregard for nature in the name of progress --three gorges dam, for example.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#37

Post by thiagoharry »

senorjazz wrote: post #8
the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

Yes, trees and land are a resource. But unfortunately, it brings wealth for too little people because unlike in UK we aren't using these resources to fuel industries here in Brazil. In fact, our local industry is currently shrinking and we are just exporting natural resources and importing products created by foreign industries. I don't know any country which became rich just with farming and wood. It would be possible only in a country with a lot of land and little population. Otherwise, you can't build a lot of GPD per capita with just these activities.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#38

Post by notadoc »

the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

Or just look around on Google Maps in Satellite view.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#39

Post by Natsu »

the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

I've tried that during many different trips. At best I saw a carpet of green the one time that it wasn't either night or obscured by a layer of clouds.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#40

Post by thg »

aaron695 wrote: post #32
whyenot wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for oil. Another perspective would be that they attempted to blackmail the rest of the world by threatening to open Yasuni National Park to drilling, a World Heritage Site, home to uncontacted Waorani people, and one of the last locations with large land mammals left in the western Amazon. I spent a lot of time in the park and in Block 16, an area to the west that…

> Another perspective would be that they attempted to blackmail How is it blackmail if it's a viable option they are going ahead with? Are you suggesting they are/were bluffing? > home to uncontacted Waorani people It is unconscionable we do not contact these people and bring them basics like modern medicine and education about proper hygiene. Basically they are animals in a zoo for our pleasure atm.

> It is unconscionable we do not contact these people and bring them basics like modern medicine and education about proper hygiene.

And destroy their culture and way of living in the process? Why? We don't have any right to force on them what you think is 'better' for them. That's happened so often in history, it's time that people finally realize that they do way more harm than good by forcing their views and 'standards' on others.

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