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Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

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Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#31

Post by taway_1212 »

Kaizeras wrote: post #16
dejv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you can manage to find even some 40k or 50k/year contract it will put you into about 5% of top earner in population in many central/east european countries. Prices are not as low as you might imagine, but it will give you a very nice life standards. You are not going to be able to afford luxury cars or other luxury items (those costs the same everywhere), but otherwise you would be set.

You will be rich in Eastern Europe but you'll still be considered average/poor in the developed world. Doesn't sound like a huge bargain to me.

Even at the 50k/year contract (and you can get much more), you'll afford a mortgage on a big house, will afford eating out daily etc. You'll be way above average most people in Europe and probably in the US as well.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#32

Post by [deleted] »

vminkov wrote: post #29
charlesdm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort? I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

That may be valid only if you're able to raise good money but the tech investing culture is quite underdeveloped here. The startup scene needs several bigger exits to make the investors greedy and curious about it and also construction/private property yields huge profits right now, so the tech startups are not the spotlight catcher.

[deleted]

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#33

Post by charlesdm »

taway_1212 wrote: post #28
charlesdm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort? I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

> convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work With hardly any VC money around, you don't really have a way to pay for those.

Nonsense. You’ll make plenty of money by actually building something people will pay for. You know, a product can actually make money without raising VC?

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#34

Post by charlesdm »

vminkov wrote: post #29
charlesdm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort? I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

That may be valid only if you're able to raise good money but the tech investing culture is quite underdeveloped here. The startup scene needs several bigger exits to make the investors greedy and curious about it and also construction/private property yields huge profits right now, so the tech startups are not the spotlight catcher.

Without making this sound ridiculous -- sometimes it just doesn't make sense to do tech. If I can make crazy returns investing and/or building property, you should probably be doing property and not tech. EE is probably a good place to be in terms of property investing at the moment.

But there's probably a place for both.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#35

Post by taway_1212 »

charlesdm wrote: post #33
taway_1212 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work With hardly any VC money around, you don't really have a way to pay for those.

Nonsense. You’ll make plenty of money by actually building something people will pay for. You know, a product can actually make money without raising VC?

I agree, but then you have to bootstrap with your savings, which means you definitely won't be paying above average wages and renting nice offices etc (which is what I was replying to).

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#36

Post by vminkov »

charlesdm wrote: post #23

1. Opportunities are often global, and location doesn't matter as much if you can sell something via the internet. 2. One big advantage of Bulgaria which is often overlooked, if you do make it: the corporate tax rate is 10%. Meaning you get to keep most of your profits. > Most of the rich make money through corruption and criminal activities Is this the case? Could you give an example?

Generalizing it as "most" is definitely not a sign of a realist's view. Most of them reap profits from low wages and the open EU market. Others get oversized government contracts funded by EU funds and a large part of them do it with corruption. Finally there are some but not that many "no-go" markets which are a special interest of the local and Russian oligarchs and their lobbying kills the competition. Romania did a relatively good job in their judicial reform, but Bulgaria lags behind a lot on that.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#37

Post by almostarockstar »

baybal2 wrote: post #9

>> The economy is not developed, making it extremely difficult to convince anybody to buy anything you try to sell them You easely get the same thing on the opposite end. In countries where people are used to buy a lot of stuff, people are constantly bombarded with advertisements and drivel. In a poor country, it is hard to convince anybody that stuff you sell is good. In a rich country, it is hard to make people buy…

Ok, find a medium rich country. Got it.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#38

Post by galfarragem »

taway_1212 wrote: post #30
mamon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly my case: working as a niche IT specialist I earn about 4500 USD per month after taxes. It might not be much by SV standards, but in my neighborhood (which is a capital city of one of CE countries) it is top 2% income. It's enough that after maybe 5 years of saving I'm now able to buy 1 bedroom apartment in the city center WITH CASH. Buying 2-3 bedrooms would also be possible if I needed it and decided…

8500 USD after taxes here :) (in Poland) I spend around $1000 per month of that.

Be thankful, you might probably afford the best living standards that is possible to afford as an employee... worldwide.

I was an expat in Poland for some years (unfortunately non-STEM job) and with that money your only limit is yourself.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#39

Post by MagnumOpus »

Kaizeras wrote: post #16
dejv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you can manage to find even some 40k or 50k/year contract it will put you into about 5% of top earner in population in many central/east european countries. Prices are not as low as you might imagine, but it will give you a very nice life standards. You are not going to be able to afford luxury cars or other luxury items (those costs the same everywhere), but otherwise you would be set.

You will be rich in Eastern Europe but you'll still be considered average/poor in the developed world. Doesn't sound like a huge bargain to me.

It is a huge bargain, because most of what people really want out of life are positional goods - the nicest house in the neighbourhood, status with the higher-class local women whether for tinder dates or relationships/marriage, cheap local staff to perform services (child care, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, cooks).

You can afford none of these earning $100k in SV, but most of these earning $30k in Bucharest or Minsk.

Of course if you are after material goods, the opposite is true - if you don't care about a nice house but want a new Tesla, a new iDevice every year, Hermes bags and a Cessna instead, then you are better of living in a flatshare or a shoebox in San Fran or the Valley.

Re: Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23

#40

Post by [deleted] »

psvx wrote: post #20
Kaizeras wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bulgaria may not be entrepreneur friendly or corruption free, but it is not a misery cesspool I absolutely agree with your opinion. There are companies like Telerik (acquired by Progress Software) and Chaos Group which have earned our country a formidable reputation on the global tech scene and it's relatively easy to get recognized. The overall ennvironment is good too - the country has grown a lot since it became…

I'am an ex ChaosGroup employee and I can tell you that if there's one thing I learned while working there, it's that all these constraints are in your mind. You can find talent here. You can create a product here and sell it worldwide and be successful. You can be competetive or better than your western competition. In some ways, doing this is even easier than in the west. My view is that in order to be greatly succe…

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