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Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

krebsonsecurity.com

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Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#31

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

nopinsight wrote: post #26
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. T…

Logical thinking skills are the gateway to independent thought. Too much of that and the proles could stage a revolt.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#32

Post by jldugger »

tryitnow wrote: post #7

> although there currently are just over 42,000 high schools in the United States, only 2,100 of them were certified to teach the AP computer science course in 2011. This boggles my mind. Only 5% of high schools are even certified to teach CS? I wonder if this could be addressed at the state level. Why couldn't California mandate a more Russian style approach - perhaps even with an entirely new exam and curriculum si…

When I was in HS so many years ago, at a relatively affluent suburban high school, AP CS was not offered. We had 2 single semester classes, basic and advanced programming, taught in BASIC and C-style C++.

But they weren't AP certified classes, and frankly, I doubt they have the money to recruit and retain instructors. The guidance counselors pretty much told us not to take them back to back freshman year, because then you'd be out of classes to take. Most of the students seemed to know more about programming than the teacher, who was also responsible for teaching accounting.

Class period ends up being 10 minutes to do the day's programming assignment and 50 minutes fucking around pen-testing the IT setup trying to run Duke Nukem. One time the kid who's dad worked in district IT mentioned that "when you forget your name badge when you show up for work at Disneyland, they give you one that says 'Dale'. Browsing the global contact directory one day, I came across an account, first name Dale, last name missing. A few guesses later I discovered the password was di$ney, and Dale had quite a few drives mapped it probably shouldn't, like one with the staff directory including home addresses phone numbers and employee IDs.

So obviously the real reason Russia outdoes the US is that US targets are too easy to hack ^_^

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#33

Post by coldtea »

pm90 wrote: post #9
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well , which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

>Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it.

I think the problem is expecting some "nice" (friendly, etc) way of teaching math, which dilutes their content (like Disney-fying a novel).

The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#34

Post by coldtea »

vrutkovs wrote: post #6

This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help here much - take a look at Europe, for instance. The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes…

The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes students think about the weak points of any system, gives them a chance to train their skills etc.

Sorry, what? They are better at math because they cheat at exams, and thus they "train" their minds?

That's not even wrong.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#35

Post by [deleted] »

ardit33 wrote: post #24
rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

Apart from the former communist math teaching being much better, I think it is cultural as well. Being an engineer in a former communist country was (is) a ticket to good life, similar lifestyle to a doctor or a lawyer. In the US being an engineer is seen as boring, and something only nerdy un-socialable people do. Also there are more attractive alternatives to pursue for smart people in the US. Basically, it boils d…

[deleted]

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#36

Post by Lordarminius »

coldtea wrote: post #34
vrutkovs wrote: post #6

This article may have a point about poor state of basic computer education in US, but its just blindly guesses the reasons on the topic of why so many hackers are from ex-USSR countries. A pretty good level of CS doesn't help here much - take a look at Europe, for instance. The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes…

The secret ingredient is a culture of cheating. Its absolutely fine to cheat on any level of exam (unless you get caught, obviously). This makes students think about the weak points of any system, gives them a chance to train their skills etc. Sorry, what? They are better at math because they cheat at exams, and thus they "train" their minds? That's not even wrong.

I found his logic weird as well

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#37

Post by opportune »

jldugger wrote: post #32
tryitnow wrote: post #7

> although there currently are just over 42,000 high schools in the United States, only 2,100 of them were certified to teach the AP computer science course in 2011. This boggles my mind. Only 5% of high schools are even certified to teach CS? I wonder if this could be addressed at the state level. Why couldn't California mandate a more Russian style approach - perhaps even with an entirely new exam and curriculum si…

When I was in HS so many years ago, at a relatively affluent suburban high school, AP CS was not offered. We had 2 single semester classes, basic and advanced programming, taught in BASIC and C-style C++. But they weren't AP certified classes, and frankly, I doubt they have the money to recruit and retain instructors. The guidance counselors pretty much told us not to take them back to back freshman year, because the…

I think the problem is that for most people qualified enough to teach AP CS, there are a lot more attractive jobs available to them outside of teaching (of course, if they love teaching, they might not take them). I've had former math teachers from HS who quit and did coding / data science programs so that they could effectively double their salaries.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#38

Post by k0doque »

coldtea wrote: post #33
pm90 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well , which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

> Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. I think the problem is expecting some "nice" (friendly, etc) way of teaching math, which dilutes their content (like Disney-fying a novel). The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "bett…

I advise taking a look at the mir titles or the Israel Gelfand books. Looking from it, Russian are really good at producing top notch popular science.

Tough there is no fry, their math book are almost game like, with few carefully built example and very clear explanation using only some diagram when needed (consequently their book are quite small) and the exercise are absolutely not rote based, except the first few exercice, and even then they all serve to illustrate a specific part of a concept, all the others are puzzle like problem.

Putting lots of full color image is not making math "fun", well built and interesting problem is.

Re: Why So Many Top Hackers Hail from Russia

#40

Post by FTA »

rndmize wrote: post #4

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and…

This sounds a lot like stereotype threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat). I'd say though, rather than "it's acceptable to be bad at these things," people instead avoid it _because_ they feel they will do poorly and fail at it if they try.
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