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Copy What You Like (2006)

paulgraham.com

31–40 of 48 posts

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#31
Assuming intellectual dishonesty across a whole group of people or discipline is a mistake. Most things are bad but this approach actually blinds you to what is good within the bad and it sets your views in stone and prevents development.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#32
post #22

I happen to agree with him on this post. And, although it's excellent advice, you have to understand, its not a popular view point, and that by taking this advice to heart, you'll deviate significantly from social norms. The vast majority of people value "impressive" things as he's defined them and won't put up with your Objective analysis of what's good. Case in point, They'll sneer and look down upon you for buying…

Which is funny, because being extremely frugal/minimalist in some circles I know is seen as a status booster. But again, don't worry, there'll always be some group that holds up your values. Just keep making sure that you're still actually into it and not just trying to hold onto the group.

I think the values of the groups you're a member of influence your values, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. A well-adjusted adult probably has to have many values that they don't compromise on, but also many where there is some flexibility, and where continuing good standing within the group is more valuable that clinging to a value that conflicts with the group.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#33
post #12
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not about "copying what you like" it's about "finding yourself first" That's not what I got from the essay. PG is actually saying that a lot of works out there are blessed by the authoritative elites as good and worthwhile but what you actually like and enjoy is also authoritative as well. Rather than get sidetracked on what others think is important, what you truly like can be a better guide to avoid wasting t…

>I now know that liking Harry Potter more than Joyce's "Ulysses" doesn't mean there's something wrong with my brain. Oh, I do wish people wouldn't bash on Ulysses as much... there's some nonsense in the book to sift through, yes, but there's also some truly wonderful stuff as well. One of my favorite passages: >"and those handsome Moors all in white and turbans like kings asking you to sit down in their little bit of…

I on the other hand find that passage horrid, so YMMV.

PS: I actually don't mind stream of consciousness, but people don't actually think like that passage.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#34
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The vast majority of philosophers are not good writers. I never understood this claim. I have to assume that people are letting their judgement of the content affect the judgement of the writing style. Plenty of canonical philosophers were absolutely beautiful writers - Plato, Hume, Nietzsche. Modern analytic philosophers are almost fanatical in their adherence to simple, straightforward language. The result might n…

The three philosophers you cite are among those commonly cited as good writers! I cited Nietzsche myself above. I suppose it depends on how you define 'good' writing. In the case of literary style I think for most people it boils down to there being some amount of creativity and play on the level of language itself (i.e. see Nietzsche) which is disconnected from the content. e.g. I'm sure Bertrand Russell was capable…

>You'd essentially be stating that a whole domain of tradition, practice, and procedure which organically grows and evolves, and I might add, in almost logical progressions at times, was ousted by the whims of one foppish professor who gamed everyone into liking something he liked simply because he liked it and was impassioned enough about it.

I mean, take this argument and apply it to something like theology. "Are you really going to say that an entire tradition, one which has produced innumerable great thinkers and has proceeded on a logical progression towards truth, is entirely mistaken in its most fundamental assumptions?" It turns out that, yeah, I would say that. Sometimes people make mistake. Sometimes lots of people make lots of mistakes and the mistakes go on for thousands of years.

>For instance, you say you have never heard a convincing argument as to why Pynchon would be considered worthy of canon status--well, I'm not going to be so absurd as to claim he'll still be there in 200 years, but if you have knowledge of literary craft the reasons why he's there now are pretty clear--his maximalism is both well crafted and unique and his style is a turn away from the still dominant style of american literature (Hemmingway based minimalism) which is positively refreshing

But this is exactly the issue. What does it mean for writing to be "well crafted", what does it mean for writing to be "positively refreshing"? If we can't give rigorous, verifiable definitions for these concepts, then we're just saying "he's good because he's good".

>It's because he utilizes traditional structures and devices in a unique way

Originality has at least the hope of being a more objective metric, although originality is clearly a very slippery concept. If I take a famous novel and change one word, the result may be a work that has never existed before, but that's not originality. If I use a computer to generate a completely random image, then again, that image may have never existed before, but that's not originality. So it's very hard to define. But I at least see the hope of a project there.

>I can understand where his pieces fit into the narrative of painting history, what they challenge, what they change, and ultimately how unique his forms are and what they communicate within this context. If I dislike it, if I find it shouldn't be considered art--well I have to argue it from this perspective, from within the game of homo sapiens art history.

I can certainly appreciate and enjoy playing games, since some games are very beautiful. But this "game", the game of "make an original contribution to art history and get academics to talk about it", seems to have no rules! What good is a game if no one can tell you the rules? The judges of the game can gesture towards criteria like "originality" that might conceivably give you some guidelines on how to play, but no one can definitively prove that one person deserved to win and another didn't.

>artistic forms exist because there are elements of these traditions a large number of people can generally agree they appreciate

Yes, I agree. But if we tried to submit the works of the canon to an analysis of this kind, to see how many of them contain "artistic forms that people agree they can appreciate", how many of them would survive? Some would, I'm sure. I think Shakespeare and Homer, for example, are still legitimately appealing to people today, if they can work past the archaic language. But exactly how many works of the canon would survive this analysis? Does Schoenburg's music have "forms that people agree they can appreciate"? If not, then what does that say about the validity of Schoenburg's status as a great canonical composer? (I happen to enjoy a lot of Schoenburg's music, but I don't think someone is stupid if they don't).

>Thus the cannon isn't a good judge of anything other than what your precursors believed should be appreciated.

All that effort, and this is the conclusion we're left with!

>It's essentially the historical development of a shared value judgement, or a shared human prejudice. So of course you can repudiate the whole thing. But at that point you are no longer even engaging in that art form--or at best you are engaging with blinders on, and any aesthetic mastery you manage to pull off is largely lucky and unconscious. You are starting from a different base. you are playing your own game. Thus you shouldn't be too upset when other people don't appreciate what you do, or your work isn't considered interesting. You're not even speaking their language.

Ok, this is a really interesting paragraph. You say it's the development of a "shared value judgement", but who, exactly, shares this value judgement? We have, on the one hand, a comparatively small community of academics who share the value judgement that Proust and Melville are wonderfully nourishing authors who deserve to be read again and again by new generations, and on the other hand, we have hundreds of millions of people who would just as soon throw Proust and Melville in the trash so they could go watch the latest Marvel movie or listen to the newest Justin Bieber song. Taking your comment about the "historical development of value judgement" seriously, what can we say by looking at this concrete historical moment? What can we say about what that value judgement has become? What authority can the university canon possibly have in the face of this sheer numerical onslaught? You say that "you shouldn't be too upset when other people don't appreciate what you do, or your work isn't considered interesting. You're not even speaking their language," but who exactly are the artists who are being appreciated these days? Who is speaking the language that most people find congenial? It's certainly not the academics or the purveyors of "high culture", the defenders of the "artistic tradition". MoMA exhibits of great theoretical sophistication are laughed at while Jay-Z packs stadiums. Your warning applies much more to all those who would play that slippery, ephemeral game known as "art history", rather than those who would simply "copy what they like".

All that being said, I do think the notion of a "canon" could be saved, but it has to be grounded in genuine, verifiable scholarship. With Shakespeare, for example, we could do research on his influence on the English language, his influence on other artists, his continuing popular appeal, etc, and come to the conclusion that his plays constitute a major accomplishment. But this game of "aesthetic criticism", or declaring this or that work to be beautiful or enlightening or whatever, that doesn't need to be done in universities. People can do that on their own time. Like I said above, a game where you can't even know the rules can't hold your attention for very long. You're better off playing Go or doing math. At least there you can know that you're winning.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#35
post #10

It's kind of funny to see such a profound and important lesson distilled in to such a kitsch cross-stitch type musing. That might sound harsh but look closely - it took Graham 10+ years of following the wrong mental path before finally finding the right one. It's not about "copying what you like" it's about "finding yourself first" - and, even then, there's no guarantee self-actualization will put food on the table o…

>It's not about "copying what you like" it's about "finding yourself first" That's not what I got from the essay. PG is actually saying that a lot of works out there are blessed by the authoritative elites as good and worthwhile but what you actually like and enjoy is also authoritative as well. Rather than get sidetracked on what others think is important, what you truly like can be a better guide to avoid wasting t…

It amounts to the same thing. "What you like" is part of "who you are" (a.k.a. "yourself"); and "learning to treat as authoritative" those opinions is roughly what's meant by "finding." That is, nobody has to literally find himself; finding yourself is learning to pay attention to what's within, what you actually care about/think/like, in preference to all the concerns/ideas/opinions coming at you from without.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#36
post #33
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I now know that liking Harry Potter more than Joyce's "Ulysses" doesn't mean there's something wrong with my brain. Oh, I do wish people wouldn't bash on Ulysses as much... there's some nonsense in the book to sift through, yes, but there's also some truly wonderful stuff as well. One of my favorite passages: >"and those handsome Moors all in white and turbans like kings asking you to sit down in their little bit of…

I on the other hand find that passage horrid, so YMMV. PS: I actually don't mind stream of consciousness, but people don't actually think like that passage.

An author, as the spigot through which art flows into the world, is allowed to attempt such a thing, but their editor is supposed to coax them back 'round to something readable--or at least to something that won't wake the typesetter in the middle of the night, screaming.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I on the other hand find that passage horrid, so YMMV. PS: I actually don't mind stream of consciousness, but people don't actually think like that passage.

An author, as the spigot through which art flows into the world, is allowed to attempt such a thing, but their editor is supposed to coax them back 'round to something readable--or at least to something that won't wake the typesetter in the middle of the night, screaming.

I mean, I know this conversation is all about railing against the snobbish "you just don't understand fine art" attitude, but I find the stubborn "he really needs to reign it in and not be so crazy" attitude to be unfortunate too. It's good for artists to experiment. A lot of those experiments can be very fun and enjoyable for the readers, if you're willing to give them a chance.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#38
Bad advice.

At the very best, grosssly incomplete and misleading.

After rejecting what other people like, the best pg can come up with is ... to follow what you like. That's an equally fraught heuristic, though it may be more avaialble for observation and examination.

Realise that what works does so regardless of appeal. But that there's a great deal which has (near-term) appeal which doesn't work (long-term). Sometimes it's a false start, sometimes it's a fad, sometimes it's cargo-culting, sometimes it's an establishment of common ground which facilitates communication or understanding but not effectiveness.

I'd suggest instead:

Look at what is being practiced, and ask why?

In the case of the short story: the history of literacy, amusement, entertainment, postal delivery, publishing and printing technology, advertising, bundling concepts, and the lack of subsequent alternatives (radio, television), increased literacy, and free time, made the short story a popular format. Different dynamics brought forth the radio serial, soap operas (first on radio, then television, now the White House), sit-coms, movie serials, blockbuster movies, space operas, and comic-book franchise preboot requels.

Funding environments can create entire classes of research or application -- surveillance capitalism, AI, national security, moon shots, abstract art COINTELPRO.

I'm the last space alien cat to ask what you should do that leads to success, though my own heuristic has been to look for fundamental questions, ask a lot of why, and question premises. Going back to roots and history can make a lot of foundations look far less firm. There may or may not be opportunity there.

I'd also focus very hard on being lucky.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#39
post #25
post #18

It's kind of sad that PG couldn't get anything more than that out of the short stories he read in high school english. Sure, a lot of them are forgettable, but if I think think of the stories I read that stuck with me, they all had a heck of a lot more going on than just being a random slice of mundane unhappiness. A few that really stuck with me: The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (James Thurber), The Open Boat (Stephe…

I agree with you. I have been reading Stephen King's "The Body" which is a short story/novella and there he describes the journey of 4 friends to see a dead body somewhere in the middle of the desert out of town. There's a section where the kids are walking on a railway bridge and a train comes up and they have nowhere to go but to jump to a 50 feet drop into a river. That scene is so beautifully written that I could…

A movie was made 1986 based on this called "Stand by Me". It was a favorite when I was young. River Phoenix, Corey Feldman and Wil Wheaton are in it. It may seem dated and shallow compared to the story, but it's worth watching.

Re: Copy What You Like (2006)

#40
post #24
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I now know that liking Harry Potter more than Joyce's "Ulysses" doesn't mean there's something wrong with my brain. Oh, I do wish people wouldn't bash on Ulysses as much... there's some nonsense in the book to sift through, yes, but there's also some truly wonderful stuff as well. One of my favorite passages: >"and those handsome Moors all in white and turbans like kings asking you to sit down in their little bit of…

Is this for real? The guy didn't grace the world with punctuation?

Like with strategies for composing atonal music, almost any conceivable creative trick in writing was memorably tried in the 20th century. Texts that are one long sentence (Krasznahorkai), no punctuation, only punctuation (Koslowski), crazy "eye dialect" (Zazie dans le metro)...

It would be old hat if someone wrote like Joyce today.

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