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A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

arstechnica.com

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Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#31

Post by nl »

SnakePlissken wrote: post #5

There's a fantastic book by Roger Crowley called Empires of the Sea that covers the Habsburg-Ottoman war for control of the Mediterranean. The early chapters go into great detail on the Siege of Rhodes, including Tadini's efforts, and how the lessons learned there would set the stage for later battles (particularly Malta and Lepanto) and the end of Ottoman supremacy. For anyone interested in this article or the era i…

I came here to recommend this. Crowley's book on the siege of Constantinople is great too.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#32

Post by UweSchmidt »

mordant wrote: post #25
azernik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively, the breadth of human knowledge was small enough that one person could hold most of it in their head.

One of my favorite party questions is, "Who was the last man who knew everything ?"

Who do you have in mind? Maybe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Humboldt

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#33

Post by nl »

feral wrote: post #13

A personal anecdote from a non-historian: Some years back I took a holiday in Malta. Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget th…

Crowley's Empire of the Sea (mentioned elsewhere) talks about this a lot.

We talk about the knights now as though they were some kind of priests, but in reality they were pretty much ferocious pirates with a religious sanction.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#34

Post by eternalban »

lucio wrote: post #29

Interesting note. It's a funny thing that in the current climate nobody mentions the underpinning of the conflict depicted in the article, hundred of years of struggle between Christianity and Islam. Wikipedia: >According to Ottoman understanding, the state's primary responsibility was to defend and extend the land of the Muslims and to ensure security and harmony within its borders within the overarching context of…

That's the state propaganda. Turkic people in that area are later arrivals, and the Ottoman Turks basically pinned their legitimacy on the religion of the region. Suleiman was "generous" because the state propaganda of the time was "Ottoman Justice".

Consider a hypothetical history with Persian empire not falling to Muslims and Byzantine also enduring. Best buddies forever or likely the same pattern of pull-push on borders and a cultural clusters boundary condition?

Geography is the key here, not people's misunderstanding regarding the meaning of it all.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#35

Post by hutzlibu »

mordant wrote: post #25
azernik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively, the breadth of human knowledge was small enough that one person could hold most of it in their head.

One of my favorite party questions is, "Who was the last man who knew everything ?"

I doubt, that there ever was such a man.

For example knowing about plants and animals. We as whole humanity are still far from knowing them all on the earth, so how could somebody from history knew them all?

And even if you only count "everything" as the whole current knowledge of humanity, then also no, as there are for example tribes in the jungle who know about plants or hunting technics the genius in europe never heard of.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#36

Post by mda »

eternalban wrote: post #34
lucio wrote: post #29

Interesting note. It's a funny thing that in the current climate nobody mentions the underpinning of the conflict depicted in the article, hundred of years of struggle between Christianity and Islam. Wikipedia: >According to Ottoman understanding, the state's primary responsibility was to defend and extend the land of the Muslims and to ensure security and harmony within its borders within the overarching context of…

That's the state propaganda. Turkic people in that area are later arrivals, and the Ottoman Turks basically pinned their legitimacy on the religion of the region. Suleiman was "generous" because the state propaganda of the time was "Ottoman Justice". Consider a hypothetical history with Persian empire not falling to Muslims and Byzantine also enduring. Best buddies forever or likely the same pattern of pull-push on b…

As if almost anything written about events in history is not propaganda. There is barely any complete truth. English Wikipedia in general just spews same thing western historians words, others do the same to fit their agenda. History is a joke.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#37

Post by Avalaxy »

aedron wrote: post #28
jballanc wrote: post #4

Suleyman was not only a great military mind, but an extremely astute politician as well. One thing the article fails to mention is that Suleyman didn't just let the people of Rhodes "go free" after their defeat, the Knights Hospitaler had to hand over their fortresses in Kos and Bodrum as part of the deal. This was a smart move as the castle in Bodrum was much better fortified, and Suleyman got it without, in essence…

I liked this part of the article: "Suleiman was respectful and generous in victory. The citizens of Rhodes were to be exempt from both taxation and conscription for the next five years. Tadini was allowed to leave. He went to the colonies of Genoa, where he again fought invading Ottoman forces and again lost. The Order of St. John was allowed to leave in peace and build a new fortress elsewhere. They did so on Malta,…

> This kind of graciousness in warfare does not seem to exist in modern times. Weird, considering how brutal war in those times looks compared with today.

Well, there was a ton of brutality then as well. Probably even much worse than today.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#38

Post by oblio »

aedron wrote: post #28
jballanc wrote: post #4

Suleyman was not only a great military mind, but an extremely astute politician as well. One thing the article fails to mention is that Suleyman didn't just let the people of Rhodes "go free" after their defeat, the Knights Hospitaler had to hand over their fortresses in Kos and Bodrum as part of the deal. This was a smart move as the castle in Bodrum was much better fortified, and Suleyman got it without, in essence…

I liked this part of the article: "Suleiman was respectful and generous in victory. The citizens of Rhodes were to be exempt from both taxation and conscription for the next five years. Tadini was allowed to leave. He went to the colonies of Genoa, where he again fought invading Ottoman forces and again lost. The Order of St. John was allowed to leave in peace and build a new fortress elsewhere. They did so on Malta,…

Modern war is methodical. If it's rational to destroy something, it will be destroyed.

Medieval or ancient wars were a bit more emotion driven.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#39

Post by oblio »

mda wrote: post #36
eternalban wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the state propaganda. Turkic people in that area are later arrivals, and the Ottoman Turks basically pinned their legitimacy on the religion of the region. Suleiman was "generous" because the state propaganda of the time was "Ottoman Justice". Consider a hypothetical history with Persian empire not falling to Muslims and Byzantine also enduring. Best buddies forever or likely the same pattern of pull-push on b…

As if almost anything written about events in history is not propaganda. There is barely any complete truth. English Wikipedia in general just spews same thing western historians words, others do the same to fit their agenda. History is a joke.

History is not a joke. Just use the scientific approach of comparing and contrasting various sources.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#40

Post by eternalban »

mda wrote: post #36
eternalban wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the state propaganda. Turkic people in that area are later arrivals, and the Ottoman Turks basically pinned their legitimacy on the religion of the region. Suleiman was "generous" because the state propaganda of the time was "Ottoman Justice". Consider a hypothetical history with Persian empire not falling to Muslims and Byzantine also enduring. Best buddies forever or likely the same pattern of pull-push on b…

As if almost anything written about events in history is not propaganda. There is barely any complete truth. English Wikipedia in general just spews same thing western historians words, others do the same to fit their agenda. History is a joke.

Well, not really what I was saying. More like 'geography is history' ala 'character is destiny'.
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