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Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

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Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever became a billionaire by homemaking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_divor...

On the other hand, most of those women were already rich and powerful. (including a more lucrative profession than housekeeping)

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#32
If you are going to "debias" your model, what is the point of even training the model to handle these issues in the first place? Not surprisingly, human language can be biased. If you train a model on human language it will not magically transcend those biases. The problem is that people have this expectation that ML is going to lead to these perfect decision makers.

Machine Learning creates models that reflect the data, not the truth.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#33

In the sjw-religion, why is "homemaker" considered inferior to "computer programmer"? One of the oldest and most important human occupations versus hunched over at a desk slaving for a salary until being outsourced to a bot in 5 years? I've never understood the default sjw/"feminism" assumptions that anything feminine is "bad".

It's not that anything feminine is "bad", it's that women are often pressured into doing "feminine" things because reasons.

There's no reason "homemaker" should be inferior to "computer programmer", but there's also no reason that homemaker should be "feminine". Men are equally capable of taking care of the house, and women are equally capable of programming computers.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#34

In the sjw-religion, why is "homemaker" considered inferior to "computer programmer"? One of the oldest and most important human occupations versus hunched over at a desk slaving for a salary until being outsourced to a bot in 5 years? I've never understood the default sjw/"feminism" assumptions that anything feminine is "bad".

In the sjw-religion, why is "homemaker" considered inferior to "computer programmer"?

It's not a religious position to observe the existence of economic and social disparities.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martha Stewart got halfway there.

Unfortunately she is not the best example as a lot of her money was made in the widely publicized inside trading case. There are others though for sure.

> a lot of her money was made in the widely publicized inside trading case

She avoided about $45,000 of losses by selling ImClone stock early. Martha Stewart's net worth is over $600 million.

The fact that it was such an inconsequential amount for her really made an impression on me at the time.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately she is not the best example as a lot of her money was made in the widely publicized inside trading case. There are others though for sure.

> a lot of her money was made in the widely publicized inside trading case She avoided about $45,000 of losses by selling ImClone stock early. Martha Stewart's net worth is over $600 million. The fact that it was such an inconsequential amount for her really made an impression on me at the time.

Generally as a businesswoman and a brand more than a housekeeper obviously.

I agree I was mistaken though about the case.

Here's a more interesting example... http://millionairemommynextdoor.com/about-me/ Exceptional for a reason though. And it's not a pure one, life never is.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#37
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recidivism prediction systems will usually tell you that black people are more likely to get arrested/convicted again. They do so accurately, but also result in longer sentences for black people. https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.07524

I mean, that same algorithm could be used to determine that blacks or other at-risk groups should receive extra attention or support. An accurate picture of reality can be used poorly or well.

There is a much more fundamental problem, which is that people are bad at understanding the difference between "is" and "should". No amount of information about what the world looks like tells you anything about what course of action is the most moral (and vice versa). If you are building a system that predicts recidivism rates (figuring out what "is"), then any piece of information that improves your accuracy is good. If you use that system to suggest sentences (making decisions about "should), then you are going to run in to a lot of problems.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it pay less? You get to have a place​ to live, eat, sleep, all for free, without having to stay away from your children for an extended part of the day.

To whom is the paycheck made out? In a relationship with a large pay disparity, there is a financial dependence and vast power difference between the involved parties. If your partner started to abuse you, would you rather be the homemaker or the person whose name is on the paychecks?

I understand what you're saying and agree with you in general, but I think you're missing a large part of the picture. In general, women have far better options for ending a marriage than men - as of 2006, 3.6% of alimony recipients were men, for example.

> If your partner started to abuse you, would you rather be the homemaker or the person whose name is on the paychecks?

In that circumstance, I'd rather be a woman. While it's very difficult to find anything resembling an unbiased source, it seems apparent that it is substantially more difficult for a man to seek law enforcement intervention as a victim of domestic abuse.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that same algorithm could be used to determine that blacks or other at-risk groups should receive extra attention or support. An accurate picture of reality can be used poorly or well.

There is a much more fundamental problem, which is that people are bad at understanding the difference between "is" and "should". No amount of information about what the world looks like tells you anything about what course of action is the most moral (and vice versa). If you are building a system that predicts recidivism rates (figuring out what "is"), then any piece of information that improves your accuracy is goo…

I still don't understand why information should be elided from judges during sentencing. If public officials use data to worsen issues like recidivism rather than improve them, then those officials should be removed. If a judge can't be trusted to act responsibly and morally with accurate information about a defendant then why would we even begin to think that they're competent?

It's just the reality of how the justice system works. We have trust in the approximation of justice that the judiciary provides and constantly struggle to improve that judiciary.

Re: Machine Bias: Man Is to Computer Programmer as Woman Is to Homemaker?

#40
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it pay less? You get to have a place​ to live, eat, sleep, all for free, without having to stay away from your children for an extended part of the day.

To whom is the paycheck made out? In a relationship with a large pay disparity, there is a financial dependence and vast power difference between the involved parties. If your partner started to abuse you, would you rather be the homemaker or the person whose name is on the paychecks?

For the individual spouse there may be some disadvantage (at least in terms of risk) to being the homemaker. But for the aggregate of family households it's not so clear. A previous HN comment speculated that much of the economic gain from increased female workforce participation - or more accurately double-income households - flows to capital, as it increases both labor supply and overall consumer demand, leading to downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on price of consumer goods (plus huge demand for child care). By contrast the value delivered by a stay-at-home spouse (of either gender) flows largely to the family. Not a very PC analysis for either the "left" or the "right". Wish I could find the original HN comment, or see further research.
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