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History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

xahlee.info

31–40 of 91 posts

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a keyboard with important keys on both sides of the spacebar because the assumption was that a user would interact with the computer in sophisticated ways such as or similar to programming. Most current keyboards are designed for cost saving or consumption or just by copying mediocre designs that are common.

I write software for 20 years, I use Linux and OS X as my primary development desktop OS, I have used Slackware Linux 1.0 back in 1995, I am a touch typist — but I just can't stay using Vim or Emacs, unless forced to (such as when I have to quickly edit something on a remote machine). Yes, I might be a special snowflake — most developers don't have problems with vim or Emacs, expect for occasional flame wars between…

Why would you even try to make a switch to Emacs? It's kind of ok as a text editor, but, by default, it's nothing special. The default keybindings are stupid all the time they aren't malicious, that's true, and it has other problems, like archaic UIs (eg. completion, M-x, Speedbar).

The situation changes drastically once you account for two things:

1. The plugins. I said it many times already here on HN, but my Emacs is running 900k loc of Elisp, where more than 500k loc are plugins (or extensions, applications, and libraries). When modern packaging systems appeared, for both Emacs and Vim, their ecosystems were already formidable - it only got better since then.

2. Customization. It's not, in my opinion, worth learning Emacs if you're not going to customize it. The defaults are awful, that's one of the few things I agree with Xah on. But the ease of configuration and extension makes up for it if you're willing to put some hours into it. Not into "learning Emacs", but into "learning how to customize Emacs". The latter - if you're a programmer - is also more fun than memorizing arbitrary keybindings which don't necessarily make any sense for your keyboard, hand size and other factors.

It's, of course, a trade-off, as you have to put some effort into it and you're starting from a rather low point. You could try one of Emacs "starter kits", but, honestly, they involve just as much memorization as the vanilla version and (as mentioned) I don't find it fun at all.

Still, the smoothness of your workflow that you can achieve with Emacs once you do customize it is astonishing. It's still not pretty like VSCode (just one example I recently played with), but it doesn't have almost any limitations to what it can do with a single press of a key. It can make minutes or sometimes hours of your work time collapse into seconds (well, as long as you tell it how).

If you didn't already - if anything I wrote here is news to you - you could give Emacs another try. Of course, if you're not opposed to spending some time tinkering with it until it feels just right.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

I keep seeing this advice and don't understand it. Do most people not touch type? What am I supposed to do about right ctrl?

I don't understand your questions. What would touch typing have to do with it?

And you can still use right control when typing a letter with the left hand. When pressing control- you have less stretching. I've subconsciously over time found that I mostly do single-handed cording with control- though since the control location is so much more convenient than the shift location (for me). Your milage may vary!

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

I keep seeing this advice and don't understand it. Do most people not touch type? What am I supposed to do about right ctrl?

In my experience yes, most people do touch type, and no, most people don't use right control much, if at all. The right control key on many keyboards is already so uncomfortable to reach that even single-hand chording with the left hand feels better. Using caps lock as the control key makes it even easier to completely avoid the right control key.

However, I have also seen mention of people remapping return to the right control key, then doing who knows that to still be able to press return.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having caps lock where it is on current keyboards is in no way a superior design. It's a useless key in a prime location! Give me those "inferior" keyboards any day.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Many years ago, I came across the term "emacs pinky". I thought it was joke, until I got a job as a programmer where I was lucky enough to have free choice of editor, so emacs it was.

My memory is a little hazy on the "when", but I think some 6-12 months after starting at that company, I noticed my left pinky did indeed kind of hurt. Reaching for that Ctrl-key on the far, far left front of the keyboard was getting a nuisance. The "emacs pinky" was real!

I did a bit of research on the Internet and found a piece of text that said, Ctrl used to be where CAPS LOCK lives now, oh, and here's how to make your CAPS LOCK into an additional Ctrl key (I cannot remember a single time I used CAPS LOCK, so I did not exactly miss it). I made the change and found it more comfortable right away.

To this day, the first thing I do on a new computer I am going to use for longer than, say, a week, is to make that little change. My pinky has not had any problems since.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#37
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is holding down one or more modifiers and pressing a key not a similar context switch? Typing 'v' enters a 'v' character, cmd/ctrl-v pastes from the clipboard. There's no logical connection between the two except that you've probably had that one memorized for decades. The difference in vim is that you don't use modifiers when you're in normal mode (usually). Side note: TWO vim modes? I guess you're never had the ple…

Two primary modes, you pedantic you. Control keys are relegated to the edges of the keyboard and easily remembered and distinguished by touch, as there are only few of them. Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V is much more convenient, memorizable and logical (X and V visually look like editing marks on paper, for cutting and inserting respectfully; C is for Copy), than... how do you copy-paste again in vim? v/y? I see no logic th…

*you pedant you

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#38

what is the difference between "backspace" and "rubout"? the emacs keyboard had both it seems, but wouldn't they be doing the same operation?

Since that keyboard does not seem to have a “Delete” key, I assume that “Rubout” performs that function.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Map it to ctrl and emacs is unstoppable :)

Many years ago, I came across the term "emacs pinky". I thought it was joke, until I got a job as a programmer where I was lucky enough to have free choice of editor, so emacs it was. My memory is a little hazy on the "when", but I think some 6-12 months after starting at that company, I noticed my left pinky did indeed kind of hurt. Reaching for that Ctrl-key on the far, far left front of the keyboard was getting a…

I've started using my palm/the left side of my hand to press ctrl and it works really well, provided you are working on a keyboard with raised keys, not so easy on a laptop.

Re: History of Emacs and vi Keys (2010)

#40
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remapping vi's escape function to caps lock or jj/jk seems like a common example, or doing it the other way around and getting a HHKB. It doesn't have to be a wholly different style, just one that fits modern keyboards.

Having used a HHKB, the arrow keys and page/home keys are aggravating to have to chord when you are in a program where you can't remap to the expected key combinations (and the chords all have to be done with just the right hand, unless you want to give up your CMD/Windows key). The swap of del and '\' is annoying too, and creates problematic muscle memory that will fail you when you're forced to use a normal keyboar…

The Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite2 features real separate cursor keys:

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/leaflet/hairetu.html#l...

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