Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores • Hacker News Board

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#31

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 6:05 PM UTC

nooneelse wrote: post #28

yummyfajitas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line. True, but most groups of 30-40 children are roughly the same. There will be a few smarties, a few morons, and a multitude of people in the middle. It's called the law of large numbers.

This presupposes that classrooms can be thought of as random samples of the child population. We know that they are actually geographically localized samples, so that presupposition is somewhat strained and needs a bit of defending, preferably by empirical means.

Obviously a given class is only a random sample from the population of a given school. So if you want to evaluate a teacher, all you need to do is compare his/her class to other classes from the same geographic region.

Or even better, you can compute a statistical predictor of his student's expected performance, and measure the deviation between predicted and actual performance.

The point is that individual variation in students is irrelevant. It is extremely unlikely that a teacher will get a class full of dumb kids.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#32

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 6:14 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #27

count wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While completely true, it also glosses over the bigger problem. Not All Kids Can Learn The Same. Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line. A child who can barely read in 3rd grade may be left behind his peers for ever, OR, he may suddenly 'get it' in 4th grade, and rapidly catch up. K-3, however, he's going to fail those standardized tests, and ther…

The bigger problem is that Not All Teachers Are Competent, or ever will be. We've really shot ourselves in the foot here - being a teacher is an absolutely thankless job, both financially and otherwise. This greatly limits your talent pool to the following: - people who can't do any better in life - people who love teaching so much that they are willing to forgo much more lucrative careers Not only is this pool rathe…

Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work).

http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be...

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#33

Post by tokenadult » Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 6:55 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #24

tokenadult wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you raise standards high enough, you end up with only cheaters, because past some threshold, it's no longer possible to meet expectations honestly. Evidence for this empirical statement?

That statement as written is trivially true. The question is whether it is what is occurring, which isn't going to be possible to ascertain. I don't think anyone really has a firm grasp on what it is possible for an average child to learn, which would be a prerequisite to answering the question. (There is some idea what an average child can learn in our current system but that's such a small part of the possible stat…

Yes, I was referring to the space of actual school systems around the world, and standards they would ever be likely to adopt.

For good information about what is possible for young learners around the world, see

http://nces.ed.gov/timss/

and

http://timss.bc.edu/

For thoughts on how to improve teaching in United States schools, see (among many other sources)

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

or

http://mit.edu/6.969/www/readings/ma-review.pdf

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#34

Post by Natsu » Fri, Jun 11, 2010, 7:18 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #15

Natsu wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one place where cheaters can really ruin a system. Once cheaters invade, they can hurt everyone by raising expectations of what can be done. Worse, too often, the natural tendency is to raise the standards if some cheating is uncovered. If you raise your standards high enough, those who were formerly honest will be forced into cheating while those who remain honest are forced out. If you raise standards high…

If you raise standards high enough, you end up with only cheaters, because past some threshold, it's no longer possible to meet expectations honestly. Evidence for this empirical statement?

I'm not claiming that it is what's happening in teaching right now, mind you. I'm just claiming that it's certainly possible. I've certainly seen the idea happen elsewhere (it's how I came to realize that).

I will say that the statement relies on the assumption that honest folks cannot get a perfect score consistently. Although, even then, if one person always gets a perfect and the other person goofs up rarely and the business has to lay one of the two off, guess what usually happens?

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#35

Post by count » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 4:44 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

potatolicious wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem is that Not All Teachers Are Competent, or ever will be. We've really shot ourselves in the foot here - being a teacher is an absolutely thankless job, both financially and otherwise. This greatly limits your talent pool to the following: - people who can't do any better in life - people who love teaching so much that they are willing to forgo much more lucrative careers Not only is this pool rathe…

Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work). http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be... http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but of the MANY teachers I know (I'm married to one, so I sort of meet a bunch of them), none of them work less than 50 hours per week. Not a single individual. Sure, they may be AT work for less than 50 hours, but everybody has to grade test/homework, write lesson plans, etc. outside of their normal classroom time. My wife works approx. 55-60 hours per week from late august to late june, for less than 45k/yr. While the long time off in the summer is great, it's not paid either (many people don't realize that). Teachers also have to provide virtually everything in their classroom - educational posters/implements, paper, pens, pencils, etc.; the local schools provide books and desks, and that's it. Each teacher gets $200/yr stipend, which isn't even enough for paper and glue for an elementary school classroom for the year. Only $500 of that stuff is tax deductible for a year (we routinely spend close to $2k/yr).

tl;dr: it's not thankless, but it's not exactly an awesomely compensated profession either - there's lots of hidden shit teachers have to do/provide that should count against their compensation.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#36

Post by ktsmith » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 6:11 AM UTC

count wrote: post #35

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work). http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be... http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but of the MANY teachers I know (I'm married to one, so I sort of meet a bunch of them), none of them work less than 50 hours per week. Not a single individual. Sure, they may be AT work for less than 50 hours, but everybody has to grade test/homework, write lesson plans, etc. outside of their normal classroom time. My wife works approx. 55-60 hours per week from late augus…

I'll second this. My wife is also a teacher and every time I hear people talk about how little teachers work I want to scream. I don't know a single teacher that puts in less than 50 hours per week. In many schools teachers don't have any prep time any more and all lesson planning and other activities must be completed on the teachers own time. Summers aren't paid. Money spent in the classroom or on the students isn't tax deductible unlike damn near every other profession and their tools. Our school district doesn't have stipends, instead teachers provide a supply list and the school administrator determines what will be bought based on the available budget. Different schools have different budgets in many cases as some schools will qualify for extra federal funding via Title I for example. We have spent an average of 10% of my wifes yearly income on her classroom in each of the last four years ($3600). We also spend additional funds every year for my wife to attend continuing education or other training programs that she needs to meet her licensing requirements.

I'm often asked how we can possibly spend that much money on her class and it's a little bit complicated. While maybe $500 goes towards supplies such as pens, pencils, paper, notebooks, recorders and other basic implements we also spend money directly on the students. My wife typically buys every student a book for Christmas, we supply everything to holiday parties etc. Each year my wife spends another $500 or so on new wall hangings, new books for her library, teaching aids, resource books and more. The majority of the money however is spent taking care of the students in the most need. 100% of the schools students are on the free and reduced lunch program and the school is classified as Title II which means a dinner program is also provided to the neighborhood. Each winter we end up buying a large number of warm jackets, boots, gloves etc. In a neighborhood with 85% of the families living at or below the poverty level you wouldn't believe how much of a difference small amounts of help like that mean to the students and their families. My wife once had a student break down in tears when he received a winter coat. He told her that now his mom didn't have to worry about it and could pay the power bill. At Christmas we buy gifts (clothes) for the students that aren't included in the district wide program for the "underprivileged".

We certainly don't have to spend any of that money however my wife is there for the children and not for the money.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#37

Post by ktsmith » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 6:24 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #22

patio11 wrote: post #3

“Educators feel that their schools’ reputation, their livelihoods, their psychic meaning in life is at stake,” said Robert Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest, a nonprofit group critical of standardized testing. “That ends up pushing more and more of them over the line.” There is a certain strain of teacher who never felt their reputation, livelihood, or psychic essence was at danger when they were mere…

Not so sure about your logic. Were they motivated by fear of exposure , or were they motivated by enhanced financial incentive to cheat ? The answer to that question has implications.

The financial incentive to cheat seems to be a new issue and is certainly not even a valid issue at many schools. Nevada doesn't pay teachers bonuses. Teachers at Title I G schools will be eligible for bonuses in 2010-2011 but that is part of the Title I G grant. Of the only school I am aware of in Northern Nevada that is being investigated for cheating, the school is a charter school that also does not offer bonuses. My wifes very close friend taught there during the 2009-2010 school year (not the year causing the investigation) and the issue appears to be due to a breach in protocol during testing. An administrator had students from classes with young and inexperienced teachers that didn't know or weren't trained on the testing protocols called to his office. The claim is that these students tests weren't collected while they were out of the room, they were not escorted to the office, and the administrator coached them or provided them answers. There may be more schools under investigation in southern Nevada (Clark County/Las Vegas most likely). The other schools that I'm aware of being investigated are all charter schools. They are being investigated for misappropriation of funds or other abuses but not cheating.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#38

Post by ktsmith » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 6:32 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #11

patio11 wrote: post #3

“Educators feel that their schools’ reputation, their livelihoods, their psychic meaning in life is at stake,” said Robert Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest, a nonprofit group critical of standardized testing. “That ends up pushing more and more of them over the line.” There is a certain strain of teacher who never felt their reputation, livelihood, or psychic essence was at danger when they were mere…

This is one place where cheaters can really ruin a system. Once cheaters invade, they can hurt everyone by raising expectations of what can be done. Worse, too often, the natural tendency is to raise the standards if some cheating is uncovered. If you raise your standards high enough, those who were formerly honest will be forced into cheating while those who remain honest are forced out. If you raise standards high…

You don't need cheaters to reach a point where the expectations are so high they are unattainable. If you read the growth measures listed on the government education sites you'll see that states have proposed plans with ridiculous claims such as having ALL students passing their exams by 2014. While there are modified calculations for special education students this is still almost certainly unachievable in reality.

A perfect example would be the high school that I attended. This is a school in a small community (40k people when I attended, maybe 60k now) with a significant amount of wealth. The high school specifically has received massive amounts of donations for both academics and sports. Since the inception of NCLB the school has routinely made AYP however in 2008-2009 the school did not. The reason the school didn't is entirely due to students receiving "Individualized Education Plans" (IEP). With the mainstreaming of special needs and special education students this means that an entire school is being placed on the needs improvement list due to a small subset of the population receiving special education services.

I fully expect that in the next three to five years the vast majority of schools that have routinely made AYP will no longer be able to show adequate growth. When the children of upper middle class families start attending "failing" schools you'll start to hear a lot of complaints about NCLB.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#39

Post by ktsmith » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 6:40 AM UTC

count wrote: post #21

Cheating is wrong - I don't see any justification otherwise. With that said, the NCLB and standardized tests are destroying school - the only focus now is to learn to answer those multiple choice questions at the end of the year. In Norfolk (one of the cities in the NYT article), the 'SOL' annual standardized test is a sole determining factor in pupil promotion. If you come out of 4th grade with a 100% average, but y…

In schools on the watch list in Nevada where the state has stepped in teachers are no longer really allowed to teach. In 4th grade students receive grades in Reading, Writing, Math, Art, Social Studies, Physical Education and a few other categories. At these schools the teachers are only allowed to teach reading, writing and math. Every lesson plan must be geared towards meeting a standard in one of those three categories. The teachers are required to give out grades in the areas they are not allowed to teach. When pressed on "what" grade the children should receive the answer is typically "whatever you feel is appropriate." These children aren't receiving an education, they are being taught how to memorize information for their CRT's then for their benchmarks, then for whatever test follows that.

This isn't what teachers want, this is what teachers are forced to do by their states in order to achieve the largest number of passing schools and keep federal funding levels high.

Re: Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores

#40

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 12, 2010, 2:06 PM UTC

count wrote: post #35

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work). http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be... http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but of the MANY teachers I know (I'm married to one, so I sort of meet a bunch of them), none of them work less than 50 hours per week. Not a single individual. Sure, they may be AT work for less than 50 hours, but everybody has to grade test/homework, write lesson plans, etc. outside of their normal classroom time. My wife works approx. 55-60 hours per week from late augus…

Did you read my source? The American Time Use Survey measured both time spent working at home, as well as a number of other activities (e.g., sleeping, household labor). So your wife would appear to be exceptional as far as hours worked.

As for whether the summer is paid or not, so what? Your wife earns $54k/year, she just doesn't work all year.

Your quoted salary also completely ignores the fact that teachers in most states get benefits (e.g., defined benefit retirement at age 55, gold plated health care) which are vastly better than average. Teachers get more fringe benefits but less wages. Cry me a river.