Saturn moon 'able to support life' • Hacker News Board

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#31

Post by Swizec » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 10:57 PM UTC

rojobuffalo wrote: post #29

Swizec wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. How intelligent is intelligent? Homo Neanderthalensis predated Homo Sapiens by about 100,000 years. They were intelligent enough to build tools and have communities. Oldest corvid fossils are 25 million years old[1]. They are known to be very intelligent and modern crows can solve 8-step puzzles…

We're sharing the planet with several intelligent species at this moment. Maybe a worthwhile distinction would be intelligence sufficient to dominant an entire planetary ecology; or sufficient to intentionally become multi-planetary.

Dominate the planet is tricky too. Corvids for instance are almost as widespread as humans. They don't do greenland and the southern parts of south america.

But they happen to be less destructive to their environment than humans so maybe that disqualifies them from the "dominate" part?

That said, humans also don't quality for multi-planetary. I like that definition, though.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#32

Post by ars » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:04 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #22

nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

> I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. How intelligent is intelligent? Homo Neanderthalensis predated Homo Sapiens by about 100,000 years. They were intelligent enough to build tools and have communities. Oldest corvid fossils are 25 million years old[1]. They are known to be very intelligent and modern crows can solve 8-step puzzles…

> It's hard to say which species was first to become intelligent, but I'm pretty sure humans weren't the first.

And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life. It's not just a matter a degree ("more" intelligent), it's a completely different category.

So that means your definition of intelligent is flawed because it is unable to capture that distinction. Perhaps you need a new word.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#33

Post by ars » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:05 PM UTC

charles-salvia wrote: post #12

nzonbi wrote: post #4

If life is there, completely disconnected from earth life, it would be dramatic. That would mean that our solar system, has life on at least two, out of nine planets. That would seem to indicate that life is a fairly common things on planets. It would allow to adjust the drake equation, to easily predict millions of planets with life. And that would mean a high probability of many advanced, intelligent civilizations…

Based on the developments in exo-planet research along with discoveries like this over the past couple of years, I would conjecture that life is ridiculously common. But by life, I mean microbial life. I would imagine that multi-cellular life is much rarer, and life capable of reaching human-level intelligence and beyond is probably absurdly rare, on the level of something like one species per galaxy. It's all worthl…

> Based on the developments in exo-planet research along with discoveries like this over the past couple of years, I would conjecture that life is ridiculously common.

In that case you must not ignore the corollary: If there is no life on those moons, then it must follow that life is ridiculously rare.

And in that case, then it's pretty likely we are indeed alone in the universe.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#34

Post by ufo » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:06 PM UTC

nzonbi wrote: post #4

If life is there, completely disconnected from earth life, it would be dramatic. That would mean that our solar system, has life on at least two, out of nine planets. That would seem to indicate that life is a fairly common things on planets. It would allow to adjust the drake equation, to easily predict millions of planets with life. And that would mean a high probability of many advanced, intelligent civilizations…

Technically, there are only 8 planets now :)

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#35

Post by Swizec » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:15 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #32

Swizec wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. How intelligent is intelligent? Homo Neanderthalensis predated Homo Sapiens by about 100,000 years. They were intelligent enough to build tools and have communities. Oldest corvid fossils are 25 million years old[1]. They are known to be very intelligent and modern crows can solve 8-step puzzles…

> It's hard to say which species was first to become intelligent, but I'm pretty sure humans weren't the first. And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life. It's not just a matter a degree ("more" intelligent), it's a completely different category. So that means your definition of intelligent is flawed because it is unable to capture that distinction. Perhaps you need a new word…

How do you know it's a completely different category? We used to think all animals are incapable of intelligence and everything they do is "instinct". Now we know they can think, organize, have complex social structures, even imagine and form plans. Many show evidence of being self aware.

So we're not special enough anymore and we have to come up with a new word? I don't buy it.

It's likely that humans' extraordinary achievements stem from our immense ability to communicate and cooperate. A single human on its own isn't all that smart really.

Many intelligent animals suffer from limited knowledge transfer between generations and low cooperation between individuals. So each is only as smart as itself. Or maybe as itself and a couple of friends.

Whereas every human is able to tap into the intelligence of very many other humans. That's really one of our biggest superpowers.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#36

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:16 PM UTC

ddinh wrote: post #19

nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

What about space artifacts? Out in the vacuum stuff corrodes/degrades much slower - would satellites still be around or would they have had their orbits degraded and burned up in the atmosphere? Also, how detectable would the stuff we've left behind on Moon (the mirror, perhaps? Only thing that can probably destroy evidence of our presence on the moon would be asteroid impacts) be to a civilization that doesn't know…

Most satellite orbits should decay and burn up in the atmosphere long before a few million years has passed. Most of the near-earth orbits become unstable within decades, and the ones that don't are subject to gravitational perturbations from the moon and other planets.

The stuff on the moon will remain there for a very very long time, but until another civilization acquires the technological capability to explore a good amount of the moon's surface, it's doubtful they would stumble across the exact same spot as the Apollo landings.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#37

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:17 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #21

nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

I've thought about this and my conclusion is that we will likely leave behind a very strange pattern of certain natural resources. "Oh, look, here's a vein of copper! It's getting better, and better, and, that's weird, it's gone now and there's a complete break in the strata for some reason." Over time new mountains may form some new deposits, but it may be noticeable in the older mountains (that are today the younge…

Curious if anyone's ever observed something similar to this? It'd be super easy to detect if you're looking for it, but most miners aren't thinking "Hmm, I wonder if a previous intelligent species existed on earth millions of years before us."

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#38

Post by milquetoastaf » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:18 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #32

Swizec wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. How intelligent is intelligent? Homo Neanderthalensis predated Homo Sapiens by about 100,000 years. They were intelligent enough to build tools and have communities. Oldest corvid fossils are 25 million years old[1]. They are known to be very intelligent and modern crows can solve 8-step puzzles…

> It's hard to say which species was first to become intelligent, but I'm pretty sure humans weren't the first. And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life. It's not just a matter a degree ("more" intelligent), it's a completely different category. So that means your definition of intelligent is flawed because it is unable to capture that distinction. Perhaps you need a new word…

>And yet, somehow Humans are in a completely different category than all other life.

Lol no we are not. We share 98 percent of our DNA with various simians. We share 97 percent of our DNA with mice.

Are we the only species to communicate? No. Are we the only species to communicate symbolically? No. Great Apes use hand gestures.

Are we the only species to recognize themselves? No. Plenty of animals do. In fact, even wasps can perform facial recognition on members of their species.

Are we the only species to use technology? No. Corvids and apes use tools all the time.

Are we the only species to develop culture? No. Simians teach their young various customs, some of which (such as the washing of food by macaques in Japan [http://alfre.dk/monkeys-washing-potatoes/]) are local to the group.

Are we the smartest species? Monkeys have been able to naturally memorize a sequence of numbers after looking at it for fractions of a second. It took dedicated teams of research scientists several practice sessions to even come close to the performance of a so-called "lesser animal".

Humans are exceptional (I honestly would just say lucky), but are we truly in a different category? Highly recommend the book "Are We Smart Enough To Know How Smart Animals Are?" by Frans de Waal.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#39

Post by tmalsburg2 » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

nzonbi wrote: post #4

If life is there, completely disconnected from earth life, it would be dramatic. That would mean that our solar system, has life on at least two, out of nine planets. That would seem to indicate that life is a fairly common things on planets. It would allow to adjust the drake equation, to easily predict millions of planets with life. And that would mean a high probability of many advanced, intelligent civilizations…

What's the posterior distribution over numbers of life forms in the universe under some conservative prior and after finding that this moon has life, too? (Plus assuming that these events are independent, which they are probably not.)

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#40

Post by S4M » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #17

charles-salvia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the developments in exo-planet research along with discoveries like this over the past couple of years, I would conjecture that life is ridiculously common. But by life, I mean microbial life. I would imagine that multi-cellular life is much rarer, and life capable of reaching human-level intelligence and beyond is probably absurdly rare, on the level of something like one species per galaxy. It's all worthl…

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

How about the things we would have left in extreme environments: Internet cables at the bottom of the sea, rubbish (or dead people with clothes) high in the mountains, or remnants of polar expeditions in the South pole?