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United Airlines just lost $800M in value

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Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#31

Post by self-diversity »

calbear81 wrote: post #26
self-diversity wrote: post #25

The heated rhetoric around this outrage o' the moment is disguising the fact that United isn't culpable for the brutality the person underwent. I suspect that the imminent next outrage o' the moment will supplant this in people's minds, and some savvy folks will snap up United at a bargain price and make a tidy profit from this affair.

Sure, they weren't the ones who employed the officers who removed the passenger from the plane but things didn't have to work out that way if United had considered that the passenger did nothing wrong to expect to be bumped from a flight. In fact, United had many options at it's disposable that didn't need to involve forceful removal of passengers such as: 1) Upping the compensation considerably beyond $800. To be ho…

I can't disagree with anything you said but I don't see a single word that makes United culpable for law enforcement overstepping the needs of the situation. Given how the outrage cycle regularly crucifies and then moves on completely inside of a week, United would be best served to hold tight and let the courts and the basic facts of the situation dictate the outcome, not the fickle waves of anger expressed on social media.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#32

Post by tropo »

Overbooking should just be illegal.

Making things worse, airlines pick "less valuable" passengers to remove. These of course are the inexperienced fliers who are having trouble to begin with. They may have shown up 5 hours or 5 minutes in advance, they struggle to figure out how car rental works, they might have never purchased a hotel stay in their life, they are struggling to calculate time zone conversions, they are just learning about concourses/terminals/gates, they have never used a baggage claim, and they are confused about boarding.

Not that it should normally happen, but if an airline does need to remove somebody, they should be required to pay whatever compensation is required to get a volunteer. If that causes a huge loss, oh well -- try not to end up in that situation.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#33

Post by calbear81 »

self-diversity wrote: post #31
calbear81 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they weren't the ones who employed the officers who removed the passenger from the plane but things didn't have to work out that way if United had considered that the passenger did nothing wrong to expect to be bumped from a flight. In fact, United had many options at it's disposable that didn't need to involve forceful removal of passengers such as: 1) Upping the compensation considerably beyond $800. To be ho…

I can't disagree with anything you said but I don't see a single word that makes United culpable for law enforcement overstepping the needs of the situation. Given how the outrage cycle regularly crucifies and then moves on completely inside of a week, United would be best served to hold tight and let the courts and the basic facts of the situation dictate the outcome, not the fickle waves of anger expressed on socia…

I am in agreement generally that people are conflating the actions of the officers (excessive force) vs. what United is responsible for (poor business practices, lack of consideration, poor judgement). It would be interesting to know under what specific statute were they allowed to use force to remove a passenger from an airplane? Is this covered under Trespassing or part of FAA regulations that you must obey everything the crew says no matter how legitimate the command is? Where do we draw the line?

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#34

Post by coolgeek »

tuna-piano wrote: post #19
johan_larson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be competitive pressure in the US airline market? Margins are low, and have been since deregulation back in the '70s. And if people are consistently buying the cheapest tickets available, it's not too surprising service is nose-diving.

I think its the US airline unions. Not all unions are good or bad, but it seems to me that when people are unionized they become more hostile towards their employer and eventually their customers. By their very existence, unions form an us vs them mentality that seems hard to break. Unions then need to reinforce their value to their members by always having a fight over something. I've had great flight attendants on…

It seems to me that you have the causation backward.

Unions don't get established - especially in the last 20 years in the USA - unless working conditions and labor relations are already bad.

There are literally enough books and scholarship on this to fill libraries.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#35

Post by nikdaheratik »

johan_larson wrote: post #14
atonse wrote: post #8

Not enough. Keep going down. I am praying for some extreme form of bankruptcy where heads roll. I also hope (and am eager to contribute to the legal fund) the passenger sues both United, and the airport security organization for many, many millions of dollars. I feel like many of us American flyers have Stockholm syndrome about our the dire situation of our domestic airline industry. We constantly pay regular prices…

Could it be competitive pressure in the US airline market? Margins are low, and have been since deregulation back in the '70s. And if people are consistently buying the cheapest tickets available, it's not too surprising service is nose-diving.

IMO, it's not 100% about competition. The airlines have been merging and forming partnerships to such an extent that they don't have much more direct competition than in the past. It is nearly all on what U.S. flyers want, and most of the non-frequent travelers want to save every penny they can.

I think flyers may have finally reached the point where they can't cut service any further and may roll back on this a bit, but I doubt it will even come close to the service levels 10 years ago, let alone 40 years ago.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#36

Post by sjg007 »

self-diversity wrote: post #30
sjg007 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's open to legal interpretation. I think United is liable. They created the situation and asked officers to remove the individual. Any reasonable person knows that the police are capable of using force to take someone into custody. Also the Seventh amendment guarantees a civil jury trial. This was abhorrent and wrong. United should pay dearly and change its policies to prevent something like this from hap…

I doubt you'll get your wish, because we don't run our legal system based on the outrage o' the moment for very good reason.

And likely elder abuse.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#37

Post by dexterdog »

bogomipz wrote: post #13

>"The man, who had been seated on the plane, was then asked to leave because the flight had been overbooked." According to the BBC new story yesterday the reason they needed 4 people who were seated to leave is that they needed to make room for 4 off-duty United employees, which makes this even more outrageous(if that's even possible.)[1][2] And the United/Continental merger was somehow supposed to benefit the consum…

But those 4 people were for another flight which would be cancelled if they didn't get there. Inconvenience 4 people or cancel an entire flight?

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#38

Post by sundaeofshock »

dexterdog wrote: post #37
bogomipz wrote: post #13

>"The man, who had been seated on the plane, was then asked to leave because the flight had been overbooked." According to the BBC new story yesterday the reason they needed 4 people who were seated to leave is that they needed to make room for 4 off-duty United employees, which makes this even more outrageous(if that's even possible.)[1][2] And the United/Continental merger was somehow supposed to benefit the consum…

But those 4 people were for another flight which would be cancelled if they didn't get there. Inconvenience 4 people or cancel an entire flight?

They could have kept increasing the size of the travel voucher until four people said yes. Problem solved.

Re: United Airlines just lost $800M in value

#39

Post by kilotaras »

dexterdog wrote: post #37
bogomipz wrote: post #13

>"The man, who had been seated on the plane, was then asked to leave because the flight had been overbooked." According to the BBC new story yesterday the reason they needed 4 people who were seated to leave is that they needed to make room for 4 off-duty United employees, which makes this even more outrageous(if that's even possible.)[1][2] And the United/Continental merger was somehow supposed to benefit the consum…

But those 4 people were for another flight which would be cancelled if they didn't get there. Inconvenience 4 people or cancel an entire flight?

They had 20 hours to get there. There were flights from other airlines as well as ability to just drive 5 hours.
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