Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#31

Post by simonsarris » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

What they're counting matters. It seems if Google has the goal of hiring more females than industry average, then the stats are stacked against them when you look at their worker pay distribution, even if Google isn't doing anything wrong.

Suppose the population is distributed in their experience and productivity, and that you can measure these to some extent.

Suppose your field has way more males than females. This is not your fault, more of a pipeline thing, but you want to be more equal internally than the outside world is. Most people commend this kind of thing.

If you are fairly paying both genders, wouldn't you necessarily have to take more unproductive and inexperienced female engineers to reach your goal? And if you're fairly paying based on those criteria, won't the female population be paid less as you try to take on a more-than-average number of them?

I'm not saying any of this is how it ought to be, just that it seems like a typical conclusion with napkin math, and would result in these allegations while Google is actually trying to do good.

Interestingly if equal pay were not a thing, I would expect the opposite headline: That Google would pay women much more than men to work so that they could attempt to correct a gender imbalance internally that exists in the external population (software workers).

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#32

Post by _Codemonkeyism » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

This often happens in cultures - not sure Google is such a culture - were you negotiate your initial salary, raises and need to push for promotions.

When advising women on interviewing I always suggest they ask for more money than they are comfortable with.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#33

Post by tomerico » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #28

m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

What you heard is an apology for sexism. Almost all structural/systematic discrimination can be controlled out of your comparison if you normalize it for the factors of the, er, structural/systematic discrimination.

But if you are ok with pay differences based on expert and job function, that's fine.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#34

Post by wonderous » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

Prior HN comments and no paywall Guardian story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14063043

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#35

Post by kgwgk » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #25

Assuming labor markets are liquid, if the pay gap is true it means either: 1. Women really want to work for Google and take less pay than working at other employers or 2. Women at almost all employers are receiving less money. There were times not too long ago when there were Jewish quotas. Nobelist Physicist Richard Feynman was denied entry into Columbia and he went to MIT instead. Nobelist Medicine & Physiology Aut…

> Any firm that pays women as much as men should be able to hire the competent women from Google.

Only if that firm pays men and women more than Google pays (competent) women.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#36

Post by nojvek » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #22

It is hard to discern what is going on, and it feels strange to say I trust Google ahead of the government. Google is full of engineers who prize logic and fairness above most else, and culturally most the engineers I meet in most places espouse gender parity and equality. In light of this, it is hard to believe Google would not find a way to even up payscales. That said, while non-management says one thing it is oft…

I agree. Google is one of the companies with the other big cos that take diversity and pay gaps very seriously. This is a very bold claim by DOL and Wsj publishing it just for eye balls says a lot about our government and journalists nowadays.

"Make outrageous stories for readers so they click ads"

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#37

Post by JAbberJaw » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

The people who talk about the president on the tv and radio said this isn't a real thing. I'd check your fact sheet on this is could be one of those liberal based poll things with a slanted view!

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#38

Post by rascul » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #18

Link to avoid paywall https://www.facebook.com/flx/warn/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.c...

Going to the site via Facebook doesn't avoid the paywall.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#39

Post by inopinatus » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

tomerico wrote: post #33

inopinatus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you heard is an apology for sexism. Almost all structural/systematic discrimination can be controlled out of your comparison if you normalize it for the factors of the, er, structural/systematic discrimination.

But if you are ok with pay differences based on expert and job function, that's fine.

Nope. The pay differences are often themselves used as a reinforcement of sexism, rather than as a recognition of net contribution. It's one of the mechanisms of systematic discrimination.

NB: not commenting on whether this an issue at Google specifically.

Re: Google Pays Female Workers Less Than Male Counterparts, Labor Department Says

#40

Post by hannob » Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

m52go wrote: post #3

I can't read the whole article, but does it (or DOL documents) include details like amount of experience and job function? I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables. Curious if that applies here, and if so, to what degree. Edit: consider recent headlines promoting outrage at Marissa Mayer's successor earning double her salary beca…

> I've heard that much (not all) of the aggregate gap (i.e., on the national level) goes away after controlling for those variables.

The question you may ask here however is: Does it matter? I mean I agree that it matters from "getting the facts straight", but maybe not necessarily from the conclusions.

If the pay gap is due to less experience, less education etc., then you're seeing effects of earlier discrimination in society. Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the society to compensate for that?