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Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

economist.com

31–40 of 166 posts

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#31
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you demand that your people bow and obey, and imprison people like A1 WW, this goes against promoting and nurturing innovation Although the Japanese were not imprisoning people "like A1 WW", they were bowing and obeying when they ushered the era of consumer electronics a few decades ago. Now it's the turn of the Chinese.

Yes the Japanese are polite and formal and like China there's a huge pressure to conform. However imo there's one key difference: the Japanese obsession with kaizen- constant improvement and striving for perfection. It may not override outward conformity for appearances sake, but imo there are enough Japanese who are madly in love and obsessed with the idea of attempting to achieve acme, that they're willing to risk…

I'd caution against using broad strokes such as "The Chinese", which is a blanket identification that covers 1.2 or 1.3 billion people. Are you talking about the Chinese government that only cares about money and has 'no love' and promotes cheap shallow copies, or that every Chinese person is otherwise locked down to live a mediocre life while in China thanks to their government or their (implied to be) anti-disruption culture?

That said, kaizen as a Japanese industrial concept a la Toyota is continuous (small!) improvements, not broad ground-breaking change. With Japanese manufacturing, it was quite compatible with keeping with social norms on the surface and deeper, while optimizing to whatever goals. Kaizen as a broader life-philosophy term is known as gaishan in Chinese, where the word originated and is still used with some frequency, and is known as many other words in Buddhism, where the concept originated. Surely the inventors and practitioners of kaizen in South Asia and China haven't completely lost their love for improving things to the beckoning of material comforts and money?

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#32

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

Remember that innovations in tech do not require disrupting the government. The tech innovators have little interests in sabotaging the government. Innovations in tech is different from breaking government rules. Tech innovations are about disrupting the incumbents such as Microsoft, Amazon, Google, not about the government. Quite to the contrary, the Chinese government encourages tech innovations. Not only that they…

you're missing the big picture. the status quo isn't limited to just a government. It can be a dominant company, tech standard, belief or way of thinking - the world is flat, there is only one true Church

> Quite to the contrary, the Chinese government encourages tech innovations.

No they do not. When you threaten your people with 'Conform or else...' or 'we will watch everything you do and listen to everything you say', it hurts both the flow and expression of new ideas. In China's defense, this is one thing Western governments are trying to copy.

> As an instance, China is one of the few large countries which have legalized shared cars nation-wide(Didi, Uber)

Car sharing originated in the West. It was started by bypassing existing laws without permission. In contrast, companies like Didi were sanctioned by the PRC likely after 'hey look how much money they're making in SV off this idea'

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#33
post #4

I was in Shenzhen a few months back for the first time. I can only describe it as Disneyland for electronics enthusiasts. Going into all the specialized malls in Huaqiang Bei and seeing the entire supply chain in one building is amazing. Highly recommend that people interested in electronics hardware make a visit.

I've been reading Bunny's "The Hardware Hacker" and it does make me want to visit. What I find particularly fascinating is that it provides powerful evidence that 'open' is innovative and 'closed' is stifling. Early on in the tech business everything was 'open'. The IBM PC published the source code to the BIOS in its technical manual, Intel and Motorola documented all of the options on their chips and how to program…

Actually, buying Bunnie's "The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen" [1] was what motivated me to make the trip. I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin before making the trip. Not to mention the WIRED videos on Shenzhen featuring Bunnie [2].

Learning the Mandarin number system made negotiating prices a breeze.

I just got the Hardware Hacker a month or so ago. Great read.

[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/the-essential-gui...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp6F_ApUq-c

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#34
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the Japanese are polite and formal and like China there's a huge pressure to conform. However imo there's one key difference: the Japanese obsession with kaizen- constant improvement and striving for perfection. It may not override outward conformity for appearances sake, but imo there are enough Japanese who are madly in love and obsessed with the idea of attempting to achieve acme, that they're willing to risk…

I'd caution against using broad strokes such as "The Chinese", which is a blanket identification that covers 1.2 or 1.3 billion people. Are you talking about the Chinese government that only cares about money and has 'no love' and promotes cheap shallow copies, or that every Chinese person is otherwise locked down to live a mediocre life while in China thanks to their government or their (implied to be) anti-disrupti…

As an outside observer, anecdotally, culturally at this juncture (plenty of room to change), from the lower class to upper-middle class families I was able to interact with in China last year, I didn't get a sense gǎi shàn (改善) was commonplace. The prevailing sentiment I experienced was chà bu duō (差不多), "near enough"...but that isn't peculiar to China, I run into that world-wide. I have a loosely-held suspicion on why this apparently seems to be a universal human trait, mainly to do with the second law of thermodynamics.

The gǎi shàn meme (and its consistent practice) seems to me more highly correlated with specific organizations that promulgate it: families, companies, clubs, etc., than a particular ethnicity/nation. YMMV, of course; I'm interested in hearing where people see this meme practiced.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#35
post #7

The "maker movement" is alive in Shentzen, but mostly dead in Silicon Valley. TechShop is mostly crafters, not people building anything innovative. Hacker Dojo is appslaves. If there's a maker space in Silicon Valley with a pick and place machine, I can't find it.

This is also true in Seattle. The "makerspaces" here are incapable of working with anything beyond PLA. There are some cool tool libraries, which can be useful for larger hardware projects, but there seems to be very little in the way of true hackerspaces. If you want to get into EE or circuitry in the US, there are plenty of good online resources, but you will be at a severe disadvantage to people living in parts of…

There are plenty of resources like the 400 MHz and Up Club. QST still publishes lots of projects.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#36
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it's very possible that unrestricted political speech isn't needed for dynamic business environments. I feel like a lot of Americans are waiting for the other shoe to drop, but only use vague innuendo or metaphor to explain why free speech is necessary for the next electronics innovation. Can't we just say we like free speech? Because if we dont, and they can develop new commercial products without it, C…

The Tianenmen square protests failed ultimately because the rest of China didn't know they were going on. What happens now when with a flick of wechat the entire nation takes to the streets? All it will take is a leaders mistakes and a single spark. It's not a question of whether China will have free speech and democracy but when.

> What happens now when with a flick of wechat the entire nation takes to the streets?

If you can think of it, then so can the Chinese party state:

https://qz.com/848885/china-is-censoring-peoples-chats-witho...

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the Japanese are polite and formal and like China there's a huge pressure to conform. However imo there's one key difference: the Japanese obsession with kaizen- constant improvement and striving for perfection. It may not override outward conformity for appearances sake, but imo there are enough Japanese who are madly in love and obsessed with the idea of attempting to achieve acme, that they're willing to risk…

I'd caution against using broad strokes such as "The Chinese", which is a blanket identification that covers 1.2 or 1.3 billion people. Are you talking about the Chinese government that only cares about money and has 'no love' and promotes cheap shallow copies, or that every Chinese person is otherwise locked down to live a mediocre life while in China thanks to their government or their (implied to be) anti-disrupti…

Just because a concept originated in one culture/civilization, it doesn't mean the culture that created the concept will continue to embrace it and be the leader. Buddhism is one example. While it was spread to Japan via China, it actually originated in India. I would make a similar argument with gaishan.

At the moment, chabuduo reigns over gaishan in China.

https://aeon.co/essays/what-chinese-corner-cutting-reveals-a...

> I'd caution against using broad strokes

Yes it can be dangerous using broad strokes. However are there no dominant features or beliefs in a particular culture regardless of its size? My opinions on Chinese culture both on the mainland and elsewhere were formed after a lifetime of exposure to it so maybe I'm biased.

> That said, kaizen as a Japanese industrial concept a la Toyota is continuous (small!) improvements, not broad ground-breaking change

I don't know as much about Japanese culture as I do about Chinese. What I mean is the Japanese obsession with mastery of an art or skill. I can't remember the word. I don't feel that it's shuhari either but I could be wrong.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#38

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

Remember that innovations in tech do not require disrupting the government. The tech innovators have little interests in sabotaging the government. Innovations in tech is different from breaking government rules. Tech innovations are about disrupting the incumbents such as Microsoft, Amazon, Google, not about the government. Quite to the contrary, the Chinese government encourages tech innovations. Not only that they…

Note that the government of the PRC has blocked and MITM'ed Github several times[1] which does not 'encourage tech innovations' in my view.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub#China

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#39
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it's very possible that unrestricted political speech isn't needed for dynamic business environments. I feel like a lot of Americans are waiting for the other shoe to drop, but only use vague innuendo or metaphor to explain why free speech is necessary for the next electronics innovation. Can't we just say we like free speech? Because if we dont, and they can develop new commercial products without it, C…

The Tianenmen square protests failed ultimately because the rest of China didn't know they were going on. What happens now when with a flick of wechat the entire nation takes to the streets? All it will take is a leaders mistakes and a single spark. It's not a question of whether China will have free speech and democracy but when.

After n rounds of chaos and peace cycles and losting millions of lives in best case.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#40

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

China is not Russian style system where oligarchs close to leader step in and steal your stuff if you get rich.

China resembles (British) monarchy of the old. There are laws, but they are not same for the common man and to the noble (60 million members of the communist party). If you steer away from the politics, you can be entrepreneur and become rich.

Corruption exists of course, but that's like taxation. You pay your taxes and bribes. Bribing can sometimes allow more freedoms than completely lawful society, because it allows more.

China has basically the same bioethical laws as the west, but they are not enforced because party does not care. China became the first country to approve the commercial production of a gene therapy.

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