Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed • Hacker News Board

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#31

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

83457 wrote: post #19

andrewbarba wrote: post #13

Maybe I am completely off the marks here, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but as someone who follows very closely what Apple is (or isn't?) doing in their Pro machines I am very curious how those specs compare to what everyone is asking for from Apple. The RAM is obviously low, fine, but it sounds like the CPU and GPU are significantly more capable than anything that Apple is shipping right now, and Microsoft wil…

Traditionally consoles are sold at a loss at first and the as components come down in price it evens out. Last gen though xbone and ps4 were essentially sold at cost. Most likely this is sold at cost and then they make money off of games. Apple needs to cover costs of OS and make a profit off of the computer alone and people are willing to pay a premium for Apple.

> Traditionally consoles are sold at a loss at first

That has not been the case since this generation, and even most Nintendo consoles were not sold at loss. the Wii was already profitable at launch, hardware and price-wise. Plus, looking at sites like iSupply is not a good estimation of the real cost of consoles, since manufacturers who order millions of parts do not pay the same price per component as consumers.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#32

Post by snuxoll » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #26

joshuamorton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of it is the type of graphics card. FirePro (the kind in workstations) are much more expensive than normal general purpose graphics cards, which are again more expensive than custom SoCs which can be developed barebones for a specific use. Reason being that a calculation error that results in a dead pixel is fine when you are playing a video game. It'll be there for 1/60s and then be gone, never seen again…

That's not true. Loads of stuff is offloaded to GPU, which would cause a complete crash if it didn't work. GPUs aren't just layering rasters on top of each other.

It is true. Workstation graphics cards often have ECC memory, consumer cards don't. The biggest difference in most use though is better fp64 support on workstation cards, important for CAD applications as well as some use cases with 3D animated films or special effects.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#33

Post by kbenson » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

snuxoll wrote: post #14

nlawalker wrote: post #9

If you own a PS4 or an X1 and the money to buy a PS4 Pro or Scorpio, it seems like the best move is to buy the upgrade of the platform you don't have. Then you've got access to both platforms' exclusives, and at least one new-spec machine for the games that aren't exclusive. I think the most interesting thing is going to see how compatibility works out long-term for Scorpio. What will the cross-compat story be for th…

> If you own a PS4 or an X1 and the money to buy a PS4 Pro or Scorpio, it seems like the best move is to buy the upgrade of the platform you don't have. Then you've got access to both platforms' exclusives, and at least one new-spec machine for the games that aren't exclusive. As someone who owns both consoles, after seeing the lack of enthusiasm at the PS4 Pro launch event I decided to hold off until Scorpio specs b…

> From here on out, expect new hardware every couple years that will be compatible with your existing library

So, basically a computer, but limited, and a lower bar to entry.

I understand the use case for those that might not have a traditional computer or a very old one, but presumably everyone here would be better served by either shelling out an extra $100-$200 every couple years for a better video card in their laptop (if that's the only system them have), or dropping that on a discrete video card and sticking it in their current desktop?

I'm having trouble finding a case where I'm not better off buying a cheap Dell desktop and throwing a mid-range video card in there for approximately the same cost. It's a little bulkier, but I imagine Steam's Big Picture mode probably does a good job of the interface.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#34

Post by eberkund » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

andrewbarba wrote: post #13

Maybe I am completely off the marks here, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but as someone who follows very closely what Apple is (or isn't?) doing in their Pro machines I am very curious how those specs compare to what everyone is asking for from Apple. The RAM is obviously low, fine, but it sounds like the CPU and GPU are significantly more capable than anything that Apple is shipping right now, and Microsoft wil…

You're not missing anything. If this console launch is anything like the previous generations the hardware will be an amazing bargain when it comes out. Comparable to a high end gaming PC or workstation for half the cost.

The only difference is that with Apple they will be expected to make a decent profit margin on that hardware and update it with newer specs in a year or two. With consoles, they will continue selling the same hardware for 5+ years so it is okay if they start selling at a loss initially if it means more money to be made from game sales.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#35

Post by emdowling » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

I'm glad we're seeing utilisation at the 66% level. That extra power is going to be mighty useful for VR. It's going to be really interesting to see what Microsoft reveal there.

I have an Xbox One and a Switch. Personally, I love this combination and Scorpio could be a great upgrade depending on the VR story. While I do miss out on some PS4 games I'd love to play, I don't have enough hours to play the games I already have.

The ideological gap between Switch and the rest of the industry is widening. No doubt the Switch is a cheaper platform to develop for (4K assets are a huge burden) but is that enough of a drawcard? Likewise, are consoles like Scorpio and PS4 Pro becoming too difficult and expensive to develop for, unless you are a AAA studio? The bar gets set so high that smaller studios will find it harder and harder to keep up. I can easily foresee a future where the Switch has an amazing selection of first party, Nintendo games and a killer catalogue of indies, whereas Xbox and PS4 own the third-party, AAA market.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#36

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #26

joshuamorton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of it is the type of graphics card. FirePro (the kind in workstations) are much more expensive than normal general purpose graphics cards, which are again more expensive than custom SoCs which can be developed barebones for a specific use. Reason being that a calculation error that results in a dead pixel is fine when you are playing a video game. It'll be there for 1/60s and then be gone, never seen again…

That's not true. Loads of stuff is offloaded to GPU, which would cause a complete crash if it didn't work. GPUs aren't just layering rasters on top of each other.

It is though, here's someone else saying essentially the same thing: https://superuser.com/questions/690388/why-do-workstation-gr....

Drivers that prioritize accuracy, and ECC ram fall well within the realm of "lower threshold for error", and price discrimination is covered by my parenthetical.

That said, the reason that custom SoCs are often less expensive than mass market cards is just because they have fewer things on them. If you don't need an FPU (which you obviously do here, but as an example), you can leave it off, which saves silicon and saves money. General purpose cards needs general purpose things, but a custom chip can often leave out certain components, although I don't know which ones those might be in this case.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#37

Post by snuxoll » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:54 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #33

snuxoll wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you own a PS4 or an X1 and the money to buy a PS4 Pro or Scorpio, it seems like the best move is to buy the upgrade of the platform you don't have. Then you've got access to both platforms' exclusives, and at least one new-spec machine for the games that aren't exclusive. As someone who owns both consoles, after seeing the lack of enthusiasm at the PS4 Pro launch event I decided to hold off until Scorpio specs b…

> From here on out, expect new hardware every couple years that will be compatible with your existing library So, basically a computer, but limited, and a lower bar to entry. I understand the use case for those that might not have a traditional computer or a very old one, but presumably everyone here would be better served by either shelling out an extra $100-$200 every couple years for a better video card in their l…

You're not exactly wrong, but you're not 100% right either.

Consoles have one thing that PC's don't, a streamlined experience tailor made for your TV. People do more than just play games on a console, they stream Netflix, interact with their friends through sharing videos and clips, listen to music on their home entertainment system that's already connected to the TV.

Valve has been trying REALLY hard to get to this point, but every time they add something new to the Steam platform it feels half baked in comparison to Microsoft's offering in particular.

Personally, I'm a PC gamer first - the lack of an integrated experience doesn't bother me when I just want to play games. My friends all use Discord for voice/text communication, I can use AMD's software to handle recording video and share it wherever I please, or use OBS to stream to twitch. But, I'm also a professional who uses computers all day and know how to put pieces together to fit my workflow - my friends are at least competent enough to do the same, but my wife or other groups of friends may not be.

Some people just want to buy a box, plug it in and have everything they want. That's the selling point, and unless Valve pulls some huge overhaul out of their butt's that is an advantage that consoles are going to retain.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#38

Post by nailer » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #23

andrewbarba wrote: post #13

Maybe I am completely off the marks here, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but as someone who follows very closely what Apple is (or isn't?) doing in their Pro machines I am very curious how those specs compare to what everyone is asking for from Apple. The RAM is obviously low, fine, but it sounds like the CPU and GPU are significantly more capable than anything that Apple is shipping right now, and Microsoft wil…

A big part of it is the type of graphics card. FirePro (the kind in workstations) are much more expensive than normal general purpose graphics cards, which are again more expensive than custom SoCs which can be developed barebones for a specific use. Reason being that a calculation error that results in a dead pixel is fine when you are playing a video game. It'll be there for 1/60s and then be gone, never seen again…

> Reason being that a calculation error that results in a dead pixel is fine when you are playing a video game. It'll be there for 1/60s and then be gone, never seen again. The same error in a disney film or a 3d scene rendered for a poster needs to be pixel perfect, so workstation class cards have a much lower threshhold for error, and cost accordingly.

I've heard this a lot, and I don't doubt that it's correct, but could you explain why? Like do consumer class GPUs have less accurate floating point, or do their embedded algos contain hacks to produce less accurate results faster?

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#39

Post by clhodapp » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

Hrm, I can't help but think that despite this being only slightly more than Sony's PS4 Pro spec-wise, that difference is going to matter a lot because it seems to be the difference between being able to output (upscaled) 4k and being able to render 4k. We'll see if that turns out to be true when the Scorpio Xbox One actually launches (this kind of pre-release article is very prone to botching facts like this). If it does hold then this machine actually has some hope of switching the preferred platform for console games back over to Xbox One.

Re: Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

#40

Post by nightski » Thu, Apr 06, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

emdowling wrote: post #35

I'm glad we're seeing utilisation at the 66% level. That extra power is going to be mighty useful for VR. It's going to be really interesting to see what Microsoft reveal there. I have an Xbox One and a Switch. Personally, I love this combination and Scorpio could be a great upgrade depending on the VR story. While I do miss out on some PS4 games I'd love to play, I don't have enough hours to play the games I already…

Actually it feels like the trend you are starting to see is that AAA studios can't even keep up (aka Mass Effect Andromeda, and other recent high profile releases). The graphics burden just seems too high that everything else suffers.

But it's not all bad. I feel like, especially on the PC, smaller indie studios have been flourishing and some of the best games in recent times are not AAA nor graphical powerhouses.