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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#31

Post by prepend »

zephyrthenoble wrote: post #19
prepend wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to see the data on this. I've worked in software development for 20 years and hired tons of people (maybe over 100). I think that professional jobs have the lowest pay disparity. I would imagine it's really hard to measure the pay gap between programmers because there are literally coders that are 2x or 5x more productive than other coders. So I don't think it's as simple as checking all the p…

https://www.cnet.com/news/biggest-pay-gap-in-america-compute...

This is all self-reported and not-representative data. So while an interesting story, is not evidence of a pay gap.

There should be a statistical paper with a proper analysis somewhere, I'll try looking for it.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#32

Post by prepend »

Zikes wrote: post #17

> Gender inequality has permeated the technology and computer science fields since their earliest beginnings. It's true. The earliest "computers" were overwhelmingly women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer#Wartime_computi...

Those were secretarial jobs and not equivalent to today's computer programmers, like Ada Lovelace.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#33

Post by oconnor663 »

and0 wrote: post #11
oconnor663 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paint men in a derogatory light I'm not sure I see what you're referring to. I don't think the article mentions men at all, apart from the senators?

Equality scares people when inequality is all they have to lean on. It makes them do strange things to re-frame discussions.

Let's be the change we want to see in the world and avoid assuming other people's experiences, no matter what side they're on :|

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#34

Post by mirage01 »

dijit wrote: post #6

Virtue Signalling and attempting to divide the genders in the opening, before the quotes from women in tech. I expect better from The Practical Dev, you don't have to paint men in a derogatory light to bring up women.

No one has to "attempt to divide the genders." Women have already been subjected to this in colonial and imperial countries for at least thousands of years.

What you see as an "attempt at dividing" is more accurately the article showing you reality while you dismiss it.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#35

Post by and0 »

dijit wrote: post #25

I'm desperate to push the "women aren't victims" narrative. If we tell them they're victims enough then they'll believe it. There is evidence of this in other things for instance refugees who are told that they're victims are less likely to integrate. I'm more focused on pointing out that we're all equal. If you're a woman on my team, I'm incredibly sorry but I'm not going to celebrate your feminity any more than I'd…

In this case women are definitely victims of you talking about them like they're misbehaving toddlers.

You're literally commenting on a page written by women for women, saying that they're being manipulated by outside forces, and suggesting better ways to manipulate them.

Have you ever thought about your opinions on feminism at all?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#36

Post by and0 »

prepend wrote: post #30
and0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Susan Fowler's case was not unique, I know women in tech who can confirm this. These are systematic issues. Why are you so desperate to downplay them, and why do you get so nervous when you're not allowed to frame the issues or control how they're addressed? Also, your murder analogy is.. absurd.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Susan Fowler's case is unique, it is not. Her case is rare, like murder. Of course murder is a terrible crime and is in no way equivalent to sexual harassment, but is useful as an example of a terrible, but rare case. I sincerely hope the problem isn't systemic or systematic within tech, but I need to see data to believe this. Your anecdotes of multiple women who have, unfortunat…

It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid.

Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all day and haven't noticed sexual harassment" is more useful?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#37

Post by Pigo »

u_wot_m8 wrote: post #18

there's no pay gap in any industry when you take into account hours worked and years of experience. Women generally work less than men and take time off to have babies, man lands on moon.

If there is a gap, it's nothing compared to the figures our last President liked to throw out. I can believe there are some Mad Men-era guys lingering around huge corporations, but they are exceptions to rule (I've never seen it). Let me go ask my female team lead how subjugated she feels.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#38

Post by elastic_church »

oconnor663 wrote: post #20
elastic_church wrote: post #7

Don't recruiters keep stats on the offers and demographics that people get? I had heard wage gap wasn't an accurate disparity in software engineering jobs. Like there isnt a cabal of people at every company conspiring against equally qualified candidates based on gender. In HIRED's report it seemed more common that people underbid themselves, and more often than not the company still gave people higher offers if they…

I think we have to be really careful to avoid putting words in other people's mouths with these things. > I think villifying a sexist boogeyman isn't going to get us anywhere I don't think anyone is denying that sexist rhetoric exists, or that a pay gap exists. It could be "vilifying a sexist boogeyman" to say that one is primarily caused by the other, and it's fair to criticize articles that say that. But I don't th…

The article is based on the circumstances that perpetuate a wage gap under the guise that the awareness of gender discrimination applies to wages for programmers.

I like the cause: awareness of gender discrimination, harassment and awareness of contributions in the workforce.

I think the wage gap is tangential to these circumstances, when there is evidence to the contrary for equally qualified individuals in software engineering roles. This isn't saying that gender based averages won't reveal the existence of a gap, it is saying that the current discussion misses the mark, as if this is a form of harassment that is either deliberate or unconscious bias that people simply aren't aware of, when there are other circumstances that are more nuanced and likely more prevalent, in the field of "coding".

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#39

Post by dijit »

and0 wrote: post #35
dijit wrote: post #25

I'm desperate to push the "women aren't victims" narrative. If we tell them they're victims enough then they'll believe it. There is evidence of this in other things for instance refugees who are told that they're victims are less likely to integrate. I'm more focused on pointing out that we're all equal. If you're a woman on my team, I'm incredibly sorry but I'm not going to celebrate your feminity any more than I'd…

In this case women are definitely victims of you talking about them like they're misbehaving toddlers. You're literally commenting on a page written by women for women, saying that they're being manipulated by outside forces, and suggesting better ways to manipulate them. Have you ever thought about your opinions on feminism at all?

I live in Sweden, in Sweden it's believed that Women and Men are equal. That's all I have to say about feminism- if there are cases where they are not then that needs to be addressed.

However, the "Women in tech" push, while noble sounding has not done much to assuade confidence that they're actually doing anything. My awareness of women in tech is absolutely sky-high, with all the back-patting praise they're giving themselves almost constantly.

I don't mind it of course, they're completely free to do what they wish, but it doesn't sit right with me to keep calling them victims. If they're victims give me something to use to help them. Don't point at invisible sexism (which I have seen _once_ and subsequently that person was fired for it).

I get that you have an agenda regarding this, I, kinda don't. My personal belief is that Women are a plus to any company, and if some company is sexist then (on a purely capitalist level) great! more coders/sysadmins for me.

If someone else is going to pay them less, great! I could give a shit what you have between your legs, it's what's between your ears that matters, so, again, I'm gonna pay fair and others will probably too, but otherwise, more coders/sysadmins for me.

If I find out someone is being sexist in my org and pushing coders/sysadmins away, that person is going to feel a big wrath _regardless_ of my moral code. But because they're costing the company talent, and talent is hard to find.

Then of course I _do_ feel a moral obligation to ensure everyone in my org is happy, but my previous sentences were referring to pure logic.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#40

Post by Pigo »

I think Ellen Pao is a prime example of why it's a liability to pretend you're working at Sterling Cooper. There are shrews out there with lawyers on their speed-dial, and they will pull the trigger even if they have no ammunition.
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