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Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

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Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#31
post #29

Not to completely hijack this thread, but is it expected for devs to change jobs often? Are you a washed out has-been if you've stayed at your current firm for more than a couple years??

In my experience - most of the time - yes.

I have found the arc of a job to be:

1. I accept an offer I like based on the environment, the pay, and the ability to learn new things.

2. During the first year or two, I'm learning new things about the company, the industry, the software they are using, and a technology that I've been wanting to learn.

3. Usually as I'm learning my market value is out of sync with the menial raises I'm getting, the company doesn't see a need to keep up to date and the technology becomes out of date, so the world is leaving me behind.

4. I start looking at job opportunities, see what I need to learn to be competitive and start preparing for my next job. This is ususlly a 3-6 month process.

5. I start calling recruiters and move to my next job, making significant more and start over at step 1 until you are at the top of your pay for your market without having to be promoted above what you like doing.

This usual happens within 2-3 years. I might stick around for 3 just to get completed vested.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#32

Some great answers here. As a financial noob and only 2 years into his career, I have a question about Roth vs Traditional for software engineers. Why would you choose traditional IRA when you expect software engineer salaries to mostly go up while you advance in your career? I understand Roth IRA has limited contribution, but what is a good alternative? I see a lot of articles about this topic on the internet, but I…

It can be beneficial early on for the tax advantage to increase your net income for the year, but you'll probably want the Roth later. Also, look into the Saver's Credit. If your AGI (adjusted gross income) is low enough (easier if married), you get a percentage of your retirement savings back as a tax credit . Traditional IRA and 401(k) accounts reduce your AGI and make hitting this mark easier, and increase the tax…

Thank you! Learnt a lot from your other comment too. :)

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#33
One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that you can often borrow against a 401k and I don't believe that's as common (impossible?) with an IRA. The benefit of borrowing against your 401k is that the interest goes back into your account. The downside is that you have a maximum of five years to repay it, and of course you're repaying it with after-tax dollars. Unlike a withdrawal, it's penalty-free.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If your tax rate will remain the same for withdraw as it does now, it doesn't really matter since the after tax value is the same whether you take out taxes now or later (i.e., tax_rate x (principal^gains) = (tax_rate x principal)^gains. Assuming the money you invest goes up in value, aren't you better off in this scenario with a 401k over a Roth so that you can make gains on the money that would go toward taxes? Yo…

When people say it's the same, they are assuming you are investing the tax savings from using a traditional 401k. In other words, you could invest $10,000 in a Roth 401K, or $10,000 + ($10,000 * marginal tax rate) in a Traditional 401k. Then the numbers work.

I made my prior (incorrect) analysis based on the math from this expression, despite saying the expression was wrong:

(i.e., tax_rate x (principal^gains) = (tax_rate x principal)^gains.

Gains should be multiplied rather than an exponential factor here. (I think this expression was created because gains are calculated as roughly (1+rate)^(number years) but at this higher level it should just be multiplied by the tax rate and the principal.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#35
So first things. Just like there are traditional and Roth IRAs. there are traditional and roth 401ks. Same standards apply, traditional 401ks are pre-tax and you pay income tax on withdrawals, roth 401ks are post tax and you wont pay tax on withdrawals.

Traditional 401ks can easily be rolled over into traditional 401k (but you most likely wont want to do this, as I'll get to later) and Roth 401k's can easily be rolled over into Roth IRAs (no harm in this unless the 401k custodian has some really good funds available to you).

An important thing to understand about a traditional vs roth calculation is that when you put money into a traditional 401k/IRA you save at your marginal rate (vs putting the same money into a Roth). i.e. if your federal rate is 28% and your state rate is around 10% (say you live in NYC or CA), you save 38%. In retirement, while you would be paying taxes on the withdrawal, the taxes will be spread through every bracket, not just your highest hence its very likely that its going to be less than 38% in total taxes even if tax rates go up in the future. Further, you can have a significant level of control over your future taxes as can move to a state that has no taxes in retirement, a flexibility that you might not have during employment.

If you're single and make over 133K you are ineligible for the Roth in a normal manner. There's a good chance as a software engineer you'll reach this level at some point. This is where the "back door" roth contribution comes in and why I would reccomend not rolling over a traditional 401k into an IRA

There is no income limit on contributing to a traditional IRA (though there are limits to the "pre-tax benefit", but that and there's no income limit to convert a traditional IRA into a Roth, you just have to pay taxes on what you haven't paid taxes on already (i.e. either the pre-tax benefit you got or the growth since you put it in). This is a free way for those with higher incomes to gain the benefits of roth contributions (especially as those who are ineligible to contribute to a Roth are already paying taxes on their traditional contribution. But this also goes to why you probably don't want to convert your traditional 401k into a traditional IRA at a later date. It will prevent you from benefiting from this backdoor contribution mechanism.

So with this said, for me, my 401K is traditional and my main IRA is roth. I keep one traditional IRA opened to do the backdoor, but as soon as the contribution clears it is immediately converted into my roth.

This is a lot to take in and its good that you are thinking about these things today.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#36

401ks can be rolled over to IRAs. They can also (often? always?) be rolled over to another 401k when you change jobs. If you get matching, contribute at least that much to your 401k. Then max out your IRA (greater freedom in investing). Then work on maxing out your 401k. Many people point to the tax-free nature of these. Traditional 401k and Traditional IRA means you don't pay taxes now, but are taxed on the distribu…

They can also (often? always?) be rolled over to another 401k when you change jobs I can think of no good reason to ever roll a 401K to another employer instead of rolling it over to a usually much lower cost IRA.

I can think of one common situation for typical HN readers. If you make too much money to contribute to a Roth IRA, and your workplace offers a 401k (which means traditional IRA contributions will not be deductible), then you can still put money into a Roth IRA by contributing after-tax dollars to a traditional IRA and doing a backdoor Roth conversion[1].

The problem is that when you do one, you pay taxes pro rata on any pre-tax funds in your IRA. If your 401k is pre-tax dollars (most are), then if you convert a 401k to an IRA, you will start having to pay taxes every time you try to do a backdoor Roth.

[1]http://www.rothira.com/what-is-a-backdoor-roth-ira

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#37
First thing I want to say is that it's very easy for technical people to frame this as a technical issue rather than an emotional issue. The evidence is overwhelming that wealth building is an emotional issue. So if you're not paying attention to that side of the equation, all this tax stuff really doesn't matter. I'll get back to this later and explain the four account types now.

Employer: Traditional 401k (pre tax), Roth 401k (after tax)

Personal: Traditional IRA (pre tax), Roth IRA (after tax)

These are tax designations, not investment types.

Roth means after tax dollars (more money up front). Traditional is pre tax dollars (you get pay more later). Both grow tax free, but with the traditional withdrawals count as income so they are taxed according to that tax year.

401k has a contribution limit is $18k / year. IRA has a contribution limit of $5500 / year.

$23.5k / year total right now for somebody under 55.

If you make enough / spend little enough that you can put the maximum dollars under the shelter, my suggestion is to go Roth 401k and Roth IRA or backdoor IRA. Over a 30 year period, the additional dollars under Roth will make up for most tax percentage differences, so it's a decent bet. Roth is the best way to max dollars under the tax shelter, and the tax shelter is hugely profitable. Also, if you go Roth, your retirement balance will be the real balance, not some fake number that is still subject to unknown future taxation.

If you can't max the dollars, then it doesn't matter as much if you pick Roth or Traditional. Yes, you have to make a call about what tax rates will be now vs. in the future, but how much money you put into the account and if you stay steady with low cost investments will matter more. So I wouldn't focus on the tax issue. I'd focus on how you earn enough / spend less to be able to max both contributions so that the tax issue matters less than the opportunity cost of having investments outside the tax shelter.

If your employer doesn't offer a retirement plan, you can usually write off a traditional IRA contribution on your taxes. However, I'd recommend you do a Roth IRA instead or avoid this writeoff so that you can do the back door roth mentioned in the next paragraph.

If you make too much for a Roth IRA, you can do a back door roth ira.

Get a tax guy for this. It can get complicated the IRS is a headache. It's worth it to pay for a tax guy.

Do this by funding a traditional IRA then converting it to a roth IRA. The conversion has no income limit - that's why this is legally possible. This gets more complicated if you have traditional IRA money, because they don't let you pick which dollars you're converting. The cleanest way is to convert all of the money at once, but you will have a big tax bill if you do this, so you need the cash saved up OUTSIDE the account. If you pay the taxes with money from the account, there's no point doing it. When you convert it, it's counted as income -- you have to pay the taxes at your current tax rate, and that may bump you into a higher tax bracket, so you might not want to convert it all at once to avoid those higher taxes. If you know you're going to live in a lower tax state soon, it is probably wise to wait until you fall under the tax laws of that state to do the conversion... but remember ,this is most valuable while you're young, so when I say wait, I mean 2 years, not 20. It can be a hairy calculation. The taxes you pay are, in effect, shoving more money under the tax free growth umbrella.

Most 401ks offer mediocre to bad investment options. This sucks, but contribute anyway b/c the tax shelter is fabulous, and later you'll roll the money over into an IRA where you can pick good stuff. I suggest go an indexing route like Betterment.

Allright, so those are the tax mechanics. But they don't matter if you don't actually save the money, and saving the money is highly dependent on your emotions and habits.

- Do you have habits that are coping mechanism connected to spending? - Are you surrounded by people in BMWs who make you feel poor? - Do you regularly read about investing and spend time planning your investing? - Do you have a plan for career advancement? - Do you have mentors for career advancement? - Do you keep a monthly budget and check your spending against your plans? - Do you know your retirement date?

I'm asking all these things because they are more important than the (theoretical) mechanics of the money. Engineers love to believe a spreadsheet showing how their 30 year 4% mortgage is hedged well against their predicted 8% portfolio to make them an extra $150k over 30 years, but the truth is that Americans suck at saving and generally don't save, so the hedge never happens and the spreadsheet was a waste of time. Also, maintaining the mortgage can put enough pressure on someone that they keep the paycheck instead of starting a business, so he earned a fraction of what he would have if he'd tried a startup. The decision to lower financial risk to start a company has a hard-to-calculate gain. We tend to avoid it and instead focus on things we can calculate.

If you spend some time reading about personal finance and psych, you can learn how to be a happier person while spending less, and this will matter more for your retirement than 401k vs. IRA and Traditional vs Roth.

I recommend you invest some time and money in some good books / audio books. They will pay themselves back 1000X, literally.

1. Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover 2. The Millionaire Nextdoor (and the Millionaire Mind sometime later) 3. The Little Book of Common Sense Investing 4. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ 5. http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ 6. Predictably Irrational 7. The Power of Habit

Of course, tax sheltered retirement accounts aren't the only option planning for the future. But they are a decent insurance plan. As you read more about personal finance, you'll see some of the other options for your savings (education, business), and you'll have to make a call about how you want to spread your risk. good luck.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If your tax rate will remain the same for withdraw as it does now, it doesn't really matter since the after tax value is the same whether you take out taxes now or later (i.e., tax_rate x (principal^gains) = (tax_rate x principal)^gains. Assuming the money you invest goes up in value, aren't you better off in this scenario with a 401k over a Roth so that you can make gains on the money that would go toward taxes? Yo…

When people say it's the same, they are assuming you are investing the tax savings from using a traditional 401k. In other words, you could invest $10,000 in a Roth 401K, or $10,000 + ($10,000 * marginal tax rate) in a Traditional 401k. Then the numbers work.

Another difference I just thought of (which may have been what I was originally thinking of but I said it wrong.)

I think an advantage of a Roth is that you don't have to pay tax on the money you earn via investing. For example, if your money in a Roth doubles then you only need to pay tax on the half of it that was there when you added money to the fund. Whereas for a traditional 401k you pay tax on money as it comes out which includes money earned via the investment.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#39
post #3

With a 401k, you can contribute up to 18,000 and your employer might match some amount. That number reduces your current taxable incoming (you pay tax when you withdraw). It really don't matter how long you're there or how often you switch jobs because it's your money and you can move it around when you change jobs. With a Roth IRA, you can contribute up to $5,500 (depending on your income -- it phases out from $118,…

Yup, the employer-matched contributions are free money! You should absolutely take as much of those as you can. You'll always have access to the 401k account even if you leave the company. It doesn't matter a whole lot if your investments are spread across a bunch of different 401k providers/accounts.

You should almost always roll your 401k into an ira soon after leaving your employer.

If your employer goes out of business it can be difficult (read involves the dept of labor) to get access to your money.

Re: Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth?

#40

One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that you can often borrow against a 401k and I don't believe that's as common (impossible?) with an IRA. The benefit of borrowing against your 401k is that the interest goes back into your account. The downside is that you have a maximum of five years to repay it, and of course you're repaying it with after-tax dollars. Unlike a withdrawal, it's penalty-free.

Roth IRAs can be borrowed against for qualified expenses, like buying a home or paying for sudden, large medical expenses. There are a bunch of other, rarer cases too.
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